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Old 01-11-2016, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,345,965 times
Reputation: 13779

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
If public agencies are going to cut benefits they will need to increase employee wages, in fact in many cases they need to increase wages even with the current benefit packages. The public agency my son works for can't attract new accountants because the pay is so low compared with the private sector so they are stuck with hiring college grads who stay for a year or two and bail for the private sector or when they can't fill spots at all they bring retirees back to work. That is not sustainable in the long term. (and this is in that nasty old nanny state California) With two promotions my son's pay is 5% more than it was in 2010.
This. I'm retiring April 1, 2016. I do not expect my employer to be able to fill my position because of the salary constraints as the last search we did took months, and we finally chose somebody who had some experience but didn't have the skill set we wanted. I would not be surprised to get a call next fall inquiring if I was interested in coming back as a contractor.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:03 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,252,516 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
This is exactly what I've been writing in this thread. If you're under the age of 55, you probably don't have much of a defined benefit pension. Increasingly, defined benefit pensions for public sector jobs are being replaced by employee tax-deferred savings plans with some kind of match so the town/city/state doesn't have the pension liability. In corporate America, there's pretty much no such thing as lifetime employment and pensions, even if they existed, aren't portable between employers. Other than a last few union jobs, pensions are gone forever.
In the private sector, yes. Pensions are gone.

But the vast majority of city, county, and state jobs out there still offer a defined-benefit pension for new hires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
You missed the point 2sleepy was making. Public employers use defined benefit pensions to keep highly trained professionals working for them very cheaply. We're not talking about prison guards or clerks but doctors, psychologists, computer programmers, engineers, accounts, actuaries, etc. Doing away with those defined benefit pensions will result in those kinds of high skill employees leaving the public sector for the private sector. However, governments still need those kinds of employees to carry on the functions of government ... so they're going to have to pay the going private sector rates while having absolutely no hold on those employees leaving in the middle of projects for greener pastures.
Exactly.

And it is precisely the programmers, engineers, accountants, etc., who will be the first to leave for the private sector, if the powers-that-be start screwing with their pension compensation.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,171 posts, read 13,668,080 times
Reputation: 22214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
You missed the point 2sleepy was making. Public employers use defined benefit pensions to keep highly trained professionals working for them very cheaply. We're not talking about prison guards or clerks but doctors, psychologists, computer programmers, engineers, accounts, actuaries, etc. Doing away with those defined benefit pensions will result in those kinds of high skill employees leaving the public sector for the private sector. However, governments still need those kinds of employees to carry on the functions of government ... so they're going to have to pay the going private sector rates while having absolutely no hold on those employees leaving in the middle of projects for greener pastures.

I worked in IT for state government and a public college. Many young programmers use public sector jobs as stepping stones to much better compensation in the private sector even with the availability of defined benefit pensions. I started working in public service about 30 years ago. If it had not been for the pension plan or if I had started in my twenties rather than my thirties, I would have never have stayed. I don't know a single IT professional who would have.
You nailed it, you explained it much better than I was able to. My son is a CPA & works for a public agency, his pay has barely increased since 2010 in spite of two promotions during that time. His retirement contribution has increased as have his health insurance premiums. The County is patting themselves on the back about how 'thrifty' they are, but the reality is that the agency can no longer attract degreed accountants, they can barely get new college grads to apply who typically leave as soon as they are trained. The only way the work gets done is by bringing in retired annuitants on a part time basis and in the long run that is not sustainable.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,171 posts, read 13,668,080 times
Reputation: 22214
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
It drives me nuts to see this incomprehensible coalition of public employee unions and poor people. The unions say they're sticking up for and protecting poor people from budget cuts and I'm wondering HowTF does that work when every dollar in inflated public employee compensation (current and deferred) is a dollar unavailable to spend on the poor.
Could you give some examples of 'inflated public compensation'? And I am not talking about law enforcement or prison guards which are outliers in terms of compensation. Oh and by the way regarding this: "every dollar in inflated public employee compensation is a dollar unavailable to spend on the poor" That's pure nonsense because for the most part about City and County employees, and neither spend very much if anything on services to the poor, and if you ever worked for a public agency or even went to council meetings you would realize that the money not spent on employee salaries usually goes towards some needless project that was lobbied for by a rich developer friend of the mayor or county supervisor.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:52 AM
 
29,837 posts, read 34,918,975 times
Reputation: 11752
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
in the private sector, yes. Pensions are gone.

But the vast majority of city, county, and state jobs out there still offer a defined-benefit pension for new hires.



Exactly.

And it is precisely the programmers, engineers, accountants, etc., who will be the first to leave for the private sector, if the powers-that-be start screwing with their pension compensation.
baaaaadddddda biiiiinnnnnnggggg!
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:52 AM
 
633 posts, read 464,544 times
Reputation: 1103
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
He noted family and for a two benefit family with each have a 60K pension that would be accurate. As I have said before consider if you were married to yourself. Sometimes folks like to combine family income which can be a combination of many factors to portray a higher amount. Like a married couple each with their own SS benefit and being at or near the max waiting until age 70 and have a combined SS benefit either close or above 80K.
That 60K benefit is triple the national average for public employee pensions.

Quote:
The average retirement benefit for public employees is $22,600 and for many of them, including nearly half of all teachers and over two-thirds of firefighters and public safety officers, it is in lieu of Social Security. State and local salaries on which these pensions are based are lower than those for private sector employees with comparable education and work experience, even when benefits are included.
http://www.ncsl.org/documents/press/jppfactsheet.pdf

Quote:
The story that isn't told is that the pensions public employees receive, in most cases, are the only source of income those workers receive in retirement since most are not allowed to collect Social Security. And the median benefit of those receiving a pension paid by a public employer is $23,407, according to the National Institute for Retirement Security.
5 Myths About Public Employee Pensions*|*Harold Schaitberger


I'm an HR manager for my state, and as such all compensation here is public. There are about 1200 employees in this facility- a retirement benefit of $60K (meaning a salary at least in the 90K range) would be reserved almost exclusively for degreed professionals with 30+ years of service, or senior officers racking up ungodly amounts of overtime. Neither example is typical and there couldn't be more than a dozen or two individuals that qualify for that here. Many employees are hired at 45+ years of age and never have the opportunity to build up that much time in the system before retirement. Plenty more leave for other opportunities outside of the state system, are terminated for cause, are injured or have health issues that cut their career short etc etc.


It's a rare employee that comes in young enough, puts in 30+ years of hard work and gets promoted internally consistently enough to hit that level.

Last edited by Burger Fan; 01-11-2016 at 10:00 AM..
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:57 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,252,516 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Could you give some examples of 'inflated public compensation'?
At the municipal/county/state level, it tends to be people-managers who are overpaid. A lot of HR types, executive staff, or mid/upper level management. Gov HR doesn't know how to properly assess the value of technical skills, and tend to use "how many people report to you" as a direct measure of value to the org.

That's just my experience.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:58 AM
 
29,837 posts, read 34,918,975 times
Reputation: 11752
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
If public agencies are going to cut benefits they will need to increase employee wages, in fact in many cases they need to increase wages even with the current benefit packages. The public agency my son works for can't attract new accountants because the pay is so low compared with the private sector so they are stuck with hiring college grads who stay for a year or two and bail for the private sector or when they can't fill spots at all they bring retirees back to work. That is not sustainable in the long term. (and this is in that nasty old nanny state California) With two promotions my son's pay is 5% more than it was in 2010.
Yup and NC is becoming a cluster ---- because of cuts as are other states. Low taxes may attract corporations but a poorly prepared work force will send them elsewhere and that requires a well prepared teacher workforce.
Fewer people want NC teaching jobs
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:01 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,252,516 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Yup and NC is becoming a cluster ---- because of cuts as are other states. Low taxes may attract corporations but a poorly prepared work force will send them elsewhere and that requires a well prepared teacher workforce.
Fewer people want NC teaching jobs
South Carolina is having the same problem.

http://www.thestate.com/news/politic...e51720675.html
SC schools chief says rural teacher pay, school facilities are top priorities | The State
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:01 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
9,778 posts, read 7,063,873 times
Reputation: 14355
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
My experience has been that many people see the end result and not think about the decades of planning, practice, sacrifice, and work that someone put into in making that goal happen.
So true. Or they don't want to hear about those decades of planning, hard work and sacrifice, preferring to believe, I guess, that it was all dropped magically into your lap because you were lucky.
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