Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It goes into what a CCRC is, how the financial situation of the 65+ set has changed, and more, in addition to the rate setting and disclosure information (that I haven't yet gotten to...I'm still in the introductory phase). It also offers up a case analysis of one CCRC in Florida, that was mentioned elsewhere in this forum (and is what I googled and thus found this article): Vicar's Landing in Florida.
I'm posting it mostly just to share (not sure I can offer much more about the topic) and for the purely selfish reason of seeing if anyone here has any thoughts on it.
I was the one who mentioned Vicar's Landing. It's right "down the block" from us. It is still highly regarded - seems to be very well managed - and has a long waiting list. Seems to be in decent financial shape if only by looking at the new improvements on the property.
I took a quick look at the case study. And the most important take-away is that costs aren't fixed in a CCRC. Just like they aren't fixed in other types of retirement places - or your own house for that matter. When various costs go up - fees go up too. The rent is going up 5% this year in my father's independent living place. Management hasn't said exactly why - but I suspect a large % of the increase is due to higher food costs - and the increasing cost of employee health insurance. IOW - you'll have to deal with higher costs/fees down the road in a CCRC - just like you'd have to deal with them anywhere else. Robyn
Yes, I think the article wasn't as useful as I thought it would be, but as a person just beginning the research process, it did offer some insights. Basically, the thrust of it was their suggestion that CCRC's be more transparent in disclosing the whys of maintenance fee increases. (Although I am surprised that so many CCRCs don't want to "burden" [to paraphrase] residents with "details".)
You have to keep the demographics in mind when you're talking about "details". I suspect the median age of Vicar's Landing residents in "independent living" is about the same as where my father lives. About 85. Many of these people are playing with less than full decks (I know - I see them driving in my local Publix parking lot ). Same as in my father's facility (my father has all his marbles and complains about this repeatedly). Those in the ALF portion are probably mostly 90+ (I stopped at a new ALF here a few months ago - and they said their average new resident was > 90). With even fewer cards in their decks. As for the SNF - the ages are probably more variable (people can need skilled nursing at various ages).
So I guess another takeaway is I have zero interest in a place like Vicar's Landing at age 68 .
Another thing to remember is this is a pretty well-to-do area.* For North Florida. We're not Palm Beach or Palo Alto or anything like that - but there are a fair number of people with money here. And some become residents of Vicar's Landing or have children who pay for them in Vicar's Landing. So a lot of these residents don't have to worry about money. And - even if they do - other people (family members or professionals) are probably handing their finances for them. Like I am handling my father's finances. So another takeaway is try to move into places/areas where people have more money rather than less. They can usually weather financial storms/rising prices better than places/areas with less money.
Overall though - I would be very cautious about all CCRCs in terms of financials. Vicar's Landing may be doing well (I honestly don't know) - but there was a pretty large one in JAX that went bankrupt. I'm not sure it's sensible to invest any money in any CCRC anywhere.
Also - although Vicar's Landing seems to have an excellent ALF and SNF (according to the CEO of the excellent local SNF where my late FIL lived) - there are probably more than a few that don't have the financial resources - even after fees - to provide excellent care at the ALF and/or SNF levels - which are (much) more expensive than independent living. Robyn
*When Mayo opened its concierge practice here - at $5k for a single - $8k for a couple - I was skeptical that it would "sell" well. Well it "sold out" (3 doctors each with 150 patients) in less than a year. So Mayo has added a fourth doctor - and raised the rates to $6k for a single - and $10k for a couple. Guess there is more money here than I thought.
You have to keep the demographics in mind when you're talking about "details". I suspect the median age of Vicar's Landing residents in "independent living" is about the same as where my father lives. About 85. Many of these people are playing with less than full decks (I know - I see them driving in my local Publix parking lot ). Same as in my father's facility (my father has all his marbles and complains about this repeatedly). Those in the ALF portion are probably mostly 90+ (I stopped at a new ALF here a few months ago - and they said their average new resident was > 90). With even fewer cards in their decks. As for the SNF - the ages are probably more variable (people can need skilled nursing at various ages).
So I guess another takeaway is I have zero interest in a place like Vicar's Landing at age 68 .
Another thing to remember is this is a pretty well-to-do area.* For North Florida. We're not Palm Beach or Palo Alto or anything like that - but there are a fair number of people with money here. And some become residents of Vicar's Landing or have children who pay for them in Vicar's Landing. So a lot of these residents don't have to worry about money. And - even if they do - other people (family members or professionals) are probably handing their finances for them. Like I am handling my father's finances. So another takeaway is try to move into places/areas where people have more money rather than less. They can usually weather financial storms/rising prices better than places/areas with less money.
Overall though - I would be very cautious about all CCRCs in terms of financials. Vicar's Landing may be doing well (I honestly don't know) - but there was a pretty large one in JAX that went bankrupt. I'm not sure it's sensible to invest any money in any CCRC anywhere.
Also - although Vicar's Landing seems to have an excellent ALF and SNF (according to the CEO of the excellent local SNF where my late FIL lived) - there are probably more than a few that don't have the financial resources - even after fees - to provide excellent care at the ALF and/or SNF levels - which are (much) more expensive than independent living. Robyn
*When Mayo opened its concierge practice here - at $5k for a single - $8k for a couple - I was skeptical that it would "sell" well. Well it "sold out" (3 doctors each with 150 patients) in less than a year. So Mayo has added a fourth doctor - and raised the rates to $6k for a single - and $10k for a couple. Guess there is more money here than I thought.
Waitaminute, waitaminute....didn't you say (in another thread) that you bought into VL? Or were thinking of doing so? Or planning too? But above you say you don't think it's wise to buy into any of them? Can you explain?
Waitaminute, waitaminute....didn't you say (in another thread) that you bought into VL? Or were thinking of doing so? Or planning too? But above you say you don't think it's wise to buy into any of them? Can you explain?
I've never had an interest in living in Vicar's Landing - and never said I did. It is - OTOH - "in my neighborhood" - and I did tell another poster who was interested in CCRCs (in golf areas) that he might take a look at it.
As for CCRCs in general - my thinking/objections are generally those outlined in various articles like this one:
Also - if there's one thing I've learned watching parents get old/die - it's that things don't always play out the same way - or the way you thought they would work out. And - with CCRCs - you don't know what they're going to be like down the road. For example - you'll know that a CCRC has an independent living place for you when you "buy in" - but not what the status/condition of its ALF or SNF facilities might be if/when you need them. For example - when we were looking for a SNF for my late FIL here - we looked at one in a CCRC here. It had beds available for members of the public at the time. Although the independent living part of the facility was very nice - we weren't that impressed with the SNF part (even though it was highly rated by Medicare at the time) - and picked another stand-alone SNF. Note that our fathers - who outlived our mothers - didn't move out of their houses until ages 82 and 88 respectively (my late FIL moved into a SNF here after a stroke - and my father moved into an independent living rental here after the girlfriend he hooked up with after my mother died kicked him out of her house - long story).
I guess one important factor is you can't usually get into a CCRC without entering at the independent living level. And - to get in - you'll need a doctor's evaluation that says you're healthy enough for independent living. Now if I'm healthy enough to get into independent living - why do I want to move into a CCRC? I don't like the concept of communal meals - living in a townhouse/condo type of environment - or anything like that. I might feel differently if/when I'm 80+ and a widow - but - at that point - I might have immediate need for more care in something like an ALF. And - who knows - if my husband or I were alone then - we might move to be near a sibling if one offered to help with our care.
FWIW - when I see people in places like CCRCs and similar (like a SNF with adjacent independent living) - they are often couples in their 80's where one spouse is ok - and the other isn't and needs some kind of extra care. In many cases - the non-well spouse has some type of dementia. And the well spouse is too old/frail to handle the non-well spouse in a traditional home environment. Who knows whether my husband or I will wind up with some kind of dementia?
IOW - a lot of my thinking is "I'll cross whatever bridge it is when I get to it". I can't plan for future events when I have no idea what those future events might be. What is your thinking? Robyn
All very reasonable thoughts. I may be obsessing about it all, because of what I've seen happen to others; but then again, I can say that *most* of the elderly that I know who've passed on didn't wind up in any sort of a facility, or did so for a very short time.
Today, I'm thinking I'm thinking too much, and may be misguided into ass-u-ming I can research my way to a decision based on numbers that, in fact, have no reliability or validity.
I suppose those of us without a partner to bounce things off of get the biggest benefit of forums like these. And it is hardest for those of us not in the poor nor rich zone, but hanging onto the middle class with the tips of our fingernails.
Then, of course, there's the whole culture of fear we live in, which surely plays a role. I do fear the horrors of eldercare. But maybe I should just be fearing the fear, as was once said..
Overall though - I would be very cautious about all CCRCs in terms of financials.
I agree.
It's worth a mention that if the CCRC is a non-profit, the financial statements and 990s are available online, often going back for 10 or more years. That's handy because imo trends and trend changes often reveal more than a static report.
Broad quality evaluations of a SNF in a CCRC can be found on sites like Medicare.gov Nursing Home Compare and US News Health but there's no substitute for site visits and talking with people who have family or friends residing in them.
We don't anticipate having a need for Senior Independent living facilities for at least 10 years, but the current waiting list for the "good ones" is lengthy so we're doing the initial research now. The one we're most interested in has a program where anyone 62+ can pay a fee to use their amenities (indoor pool, gym, library) and participate in activities without moving in. That's something I can see us doing down the line.
All very reasonable thoughts. I may be obsessing about it all, because of what I've seen happen to others; but then again, I can say that *most* of the elderly that I know who've passed on didn't wind up in any sort of a facility, or did so for a very short time.
Today, I'm thinking I'm thinking too much, and may be misguided into ass-u-ming I can research my way to a decision based on numbers that, in fact, have no reliability or validity.
I suppose those of us without a partner to bounce things off of get the biggest benefit of forums like these. And it is hardest for those of us not in the poor nor rich zone, but hanging onto the middle class with the tips of our fingernails.
Then, of course, there's the whole culture of fear we live in, which surely plays a role. I do fear the horrors of eldercare. But maybe I should just be fearing the fear, as was once said..
Okay. I digress.
I really think it depends on first - what you're looking for? I am not only married - but am in general a pretty solitary person. I would prefer watching cooking shows on TV and playing some video games than making idle chit chat with a random assortment of strangers. If you're single - and gregarious - you might well be looking for a different living situation than one that would best suit me. FWIW - when I looked at our new local ALF - in case my father might need it - you know what would be a deal breaker for him? That it had low speed AT&T internet service (compared to his current Comcast high speed service). That is what the world is coming to .
I can tell you in general that at our ages (I'm 68 and my husband is 70) - our local CCRCs are best suited for people who are - at a minimum - in their late 70's. My father's girlfriend (she is about 82 - he is 97) moved into a senior place much younger (like early 70's) because her late husband - somewhat older than she was - had bad dementia at a pretty early age. I kind of get the impression that a fair number of people here on CD in their 50's think they'll be decrepit by the time they're 65-70. And that's simply not the case for most people these days.
How old are you? And how old are you biscuitmom?
And what things are you afraid of? If it's money (and I guess all of us worry about money at least a little no matter what our circumstances are) - well I don't think CCRCs will eliminate the need for worrying. Because - like the Vicar's Landing study you cited mentioned - the costs in CCRCs aren't fixed. Robyn
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
). Same as in my father's facility (my father has all his marbles and complains about this repeatedly). Those in the ALF portion are probably mostly 90+ (I stopped at a new ALF here a few months ago - and they said their average new resident was > 90). With even fewer cards in their decks. As for the SNF - the ages are probably more variable (people can need skilled nursing at various ages).
.
. 
