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Old 03-31-2016, 04:21 AM
 
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the point of insurance is to protect you against the remote chances it is you on that other side of the statistic and if it is you the results can be devastating .

nothing we insure ever has a high rate of needing it . the odds of a home burning down is minuscule . the odds of dying young is minuscule but we have life insurance while raising a family .

the point is statistics mean nothing to us .

things can only either work out as we thought or they don't . my dad spent 6 years in a home , if he was alive today you could tell him about the statistic .

Last edited by mathjak107; 03-31-2016 at 04:33 AM..
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:33 AM
 
72,120 posts, read 72,094,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
The flip side of this is that the median life expectancy of people going into nursing homes is about 6 months. The median life expectancy for males going into assisted living is about 3 years. I realize you're using LTC insurance to game the Medicaid coverage and protect your assets. If you're not trying to do that, self-insuring might be the correct decision. Personally, I think the Medicaid gaming will have gone away by the time I'd need it. If I end up remarrying, I'm probably better off shifting non-IRA/401(k) assets to the Caymans and spending down the visible assets.
the problem is few really self -insure . our estate / elder care attorney is the number 1 attorney in nyc volume wise .

he will tell you how most of his cases are the self insurers .

folks think they will use their own assets to fund things but then a few things happen .

the assets never grew enough to meet the costs , or they were not funded enough by the time care was need unexpectedly .

more recently the expected growth on existing money from 2000 on lagged so badly these funds are well shy of supporting the 400-500 a day bills with price inflation that is insane .

the biggest issue is the stay at home spouse goes in to survival mode and realizes these are huge dollars that they really do not want to part with .

care can be less then optimal as corners and budgets are cut .

the reality is it is far easier to take a tiny percentage of what the assets you are protecting generate and pay the premium on a real policy .

to really self insure you need to take a huge sum of money and invest it very conservatively since like any short term money you may need it tomorrow and you can't risk a 40-50% loss .

that means tiny returns on that sum of money . you would do better investing it normally and getting a higher return and just use a pice of that return to pay the premium .

just about anyone with insurance and assets to protect takes it the extra step and does medicaid planning .

it is not gaming the system . these are tools left in place for the use of the public smart enough to use them . they could easily make the look back period forever if they wanted to .

they don't because as a now famous judge in Connecticut said " it does no good for the states to impoverish its stay at home seniors .

so like our tax system which is your fair share is whatever you can legally figure out you have to pay using the tools and laws given to you so is the medicaid system for long term care .

it is like that for a reason , with all these tools left in place to be utilized .

the longest running ltc policy's today are generally 5 years for a reason . to clear the 5 year look back period so medicaid planning CAN be used as a safety net .


no i don't sell insurance , i don't even work but i have given this a lot of thought and research before we did it since i experienced first hand what statistics mean to us humans .

years ago we were featured in money magazine in 2006 where they put their team of pro's against me and my plans .

the only place we bumped heads was i was going to self insure ltc .

we battled the pro's and cons back and forth and in the end they were right and i was wrong . on many levels that would have been a poor idea if i self insured properly and had coverage day 1 .

my 55 year old co-worker fell off a ladder two years ago painting . he broke his hip and wrist . . during hip surgery he had a stroke which left him paralyzed .

needles to say his wife is now impoverished from right out of left field . so that self insuring fund you think you may not need until your 80's may be needed tomorrow .

it is all about which side of the statistic you are on and do you feel lucky ? well do ya! (love that movie line }

Last edited by mathjak107; 03-31-2016 at 05:14 AM..
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:40 AM
 
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One of the best ways to live a long healthy life is to be nice and pleasant to others.
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LookingatFL View Post
I don't think that sounds like a good policy either unless you have enough money to cover your LTC needs and don't really need the insurance. $100K is not much of a life insurance policy and $200K is very little to reserve for LTC needs.

The best plan is to purchase both life insurance and LTC insurance at a young age when the policies will be less expensive.

Also, please note, that if you are single, and no one is relying upon your income, there really isn't any need for life insurance.

Yes, and no.


Unless you've made other arrangements and or plan on leaving an estate with enough to fund single persons will need someway to pay for funeral expenses. Without children, a spouse or anyone else perhaps willing to "contribute", it will be a burial in pauper's grave otherwise.


Americans tend to be uncomfortable with death thus avoid making plans. It then comes as a shock to those entrusted (or left with) the task of making final arrangements just how much even a simple funeral with cremation can cost. Prices only go up from there if burial is wanted.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Haiku
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Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
Do you think these policies at least cover more bases? Are they a trend going forward?
The devil is in the details.

LTC insurance has failed miserably because the actuarial data that insurers rely upon keep changing with improving healthcare. So LTC insurers in general will not guarantee what you are buying - they change the terms of the policy after you buy it, sometimes significantly. People who have been paying LTC premiums for many years are all of a sudden finding out they will not get what they thought when they signed up for it.

So, if the above situation is remedied then perhaps your buddy's hybrid will work. Otherwise it won't. Anybody who does his/her research on LTC insurance is rightfully very skeptical of it.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:38 PM
 
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Unless you've made other arrangements and or plan on leaving an estate with enough to fund single persons will need someway to pay for funeral expenses. Without children, a spouse or anyone else perhaps willing to "contribute", it will be a burial in pauper's grave otherwise.
You can get a funeral for less than 10K…and be cremated and have a service for much less than that.
I know it's all relative But IF a person starts to get their assets down that low they can always go ahead and pre-pay for the service/burial.

In other words If you're spending down….and think you WON'T leave behind enough for funeral/burial go ahead and pay for it.
That's one spend down cost that IS allowed with no problems.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:14 AM
 
72,120 posts, read 72,094,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
The devil is in the details.

LTC insurance has failed miserably because the actuarial data that insurers rely upon keep changing with improving healthcare. So LTC insurers in general will not guarantee what you are buying - they change the terms of the policy after you buy it, sometimes significantly. People who have been paying LTC premiums for many years are all of a sudden finding out they will not get what they thought when they signed up for it.

So, if the above situation is remedied then perhaps your buddy's hybrid will work. Otherwise it won't. Anybody who does his/her research on LTC insurance is rightfully very skeptical of it.
depending on your state and your assets the real benefits may not be the insurance part , it may be the deal you get if the insurance runs out .

effective medicaid planning as a safety net requires non revocable trusts that effectively cut you both off from each others assets .

by law they are limited to only all the gains and 5% of principal a year . that has to be set up 5 years in advance but those laws can change and go longer . they used to be 3 years .


so cutting each other off from the assets you wish to protect and not actually ever needing to have done that can be a huge problem .

i am not sure what each state offers as perks in a partnership plan but the perks are worth far more to us then the 3 years insurance we had to take to get the perks .

while you may not ever use medicaid when the insurance runs out and may prefer to continue paying on your own if where you are does not take medicaid , it is nice to have choices and always have medicaid as a back stop while preserving not only assets you worked so hard for but in ny's case preserving the income of the stay at home spouse if the other spouse goes on medicaid .

if the home one of us is in paying with insurance accepts medicaid , done deal . then medicaid pays the bills via the deal the state of ny gave us once the insurance stops .

the partnership plans are also very simple plans and in plain english spells out the details of what is covered and when without the complex wording and loop holes of older plans . ..
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:59 PM
 
20,957 posts, read 13,886,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
The devil is in the details.

LTC insurance has failed miserably because the actuarial data that insurers rely upon keep changing with improving healthcare. So LTC insurers in general will not guarantee what you are buying - they change the terms of the policy after you buy it, sometimes significantly. People who have been paying LTC premiums for many years are all of a sudden finding out they will not get what they thought when they signed up for it.

So, if the above situation is remedied then perhaps your buddy's hybrid will work. Otherwise it won't. Anybody who does his/her research on LTC insurance is rightfully very skeptical of it.
IIRC Obama and the democrats were kicking around making some sort of LTC a component of "Obamacare", but then even they chickened out when the numbers started coming in.


This is a shame as the only entity big and stable enough to do some sort of LTC for all Americans would be the federal government. Medicare needs to be reformed to reflect how persons grow old today anyway (less reliance upon nursing homes and more aging in place), coupled with longer lifespans.


A modest LTC plan as part of Medicare could work but would have to be kept on a tight lead fiscally. Perhaps by structuring payments into the system so married and single pay different rates if the non-working spouse is to receive benefits.


Problem with LTC is that the poor (or those who can get themselves down to poverty level) get Medicaid. Wealthy either pay for LTC or use their own money to pay for services/things long term care provides. So it is just the middle class who is left without.
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:02 PM
 
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the nice thing about having the resource's behind you is you can possibly stay out of a nursing home and have care at home instead .

having the funds to modify your home so you can stay there is priceless
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Close to an earthquake
890 posts, read 680,885 times
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I remember looking at one of these for a client many years ago and thought it was another example of the insurance industry to put together a product that sounded good but difficult to figure out. I wasn't jazzed about it then and the comments here echo this.
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