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Old 04-15-2016, 11:34 AM
 
6,307 posts, read 4,755,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
... And from what I can see, no one here advocates abusing or taking advantage of old people but it makes for a convenient straw man argument to support your comment and to ignore the consequences of inaction.
Actually there have been a number of comments about hiding keys, hiding the car, or disabling it. I would call that abuse but perhaps that is not the correct term. It would certainly be disrespectful and illegal.


A number of people have suggested discussing the driving with the individual's doctor. Unless these well intentioned people have medical power of attorney, they are also breaking the law. Unless invited they have no business becoming involved with the health of their parents or relatives.
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:47 AM
 
1,099 posts, read 665,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
Actually there have been a number of comments about hiding keys, hiding the car, or disabling it. I would call that abuse but perhaps that is not the correct term. It would certainly be disrespectful and illegal.


A number of people have suggested discussing the driving with the individual's doctor. Unless these well intentioned people have medical power of attorney, they are also breaking the law. Unless invited they have no business becoming involved with the health of their parents or relatives.
Do let us all know when someone is arrested for discussing someone's driving with their individual doctor. To my knowledge, there is no such law they are breaking.

And once again, so nice of you to completely ignore the other side of the equation (i.e. his own safety and the safety of others).
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:53 AM
 
Location: In a vehicle.
5,050 posts, read 3,225,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
So my father-in-law had an accident with a bicyclist last week. We're not sure if the bicyclist was just driving fast and ran into him as my father-in-law has a tendency to brake early with his bad depth perception, or if he sideswiped him. Regardless, we're at a point where we feel he could hurt himself or someone else and we don't want him to be the guy on CNN that just took out 20 people waiting in line for a show.

With that said, we've set up an account with Yellow Cab so all he has to do is give the driver a cab card for payment. We've set up a schedule for us all to chip in and help with the daily things he wants to do. We've checked with local services that bus senior citizens around. We are trying to structure the conversation so that he understands we are there to help and to give him options so he doesn't feel his freedom and independence is being taken away.

My wife and her sisters will be having the talk with him this upcoming weekend. We're just wondering what avenue to take next if he puts up resistance.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I'd make sure first if it was his fault. Then proceed. The way you have done it, you PLAN to nail him and shove this down his throat, I'd be resistant if I was him.

Unless you know FOR SURE he's a danger and not YOUR perception alone, then it's time to act.....
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:57 AM
 
1,099 posts, read 665,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgustedman View Post
I'd make sure first if it was his fault. Then proceed. The way you have done it, you PLAN to nail him and shove this down his throat, I'd be resistant if I was him.

Unless you know FOR SURE he's a danger and not YOUR perception alone, then it's time to act.....
I'm pretty sure that was covered in post #23
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:18 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 4,755,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
Do let us all know when someone is arrested for discussing someone's driving with their individual doctor. ....
I said nothing about discussing your driving experience with your doctor. Discussing your relatives health including driving abilities with their doctor is not legal without a signed healthcare proxy. The potential legal damages are large and any knowledgeable doctor would not become involved.
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:42 PM
 
1,099 posts, read 665,477 times
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"A number of people have suggested discussing the driving with the individual's doctor. Unless these well intentioned people have medical power of attorney, they are also breaking the law."

Again, feel free to show us what law has been violated by saying hey Doctor, I'm concerned with my Father-in-law's driving because he's been running up on curbs and has had some close calls that could have resulted in some bad accidents.

And as stated, your refusal to acknowledge the other side of the equation has been well documented by now and the consensus of posters here disagree with you (but continue to ignore it...it won't go away).

I think I've spent enough time with you now. You appear to just be looking for an argument and I have no interest in bickering with you. Have a good day.
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:58 PM
 
6,307 posts, read 4,755,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
....

Again, feel free to show us what law has been violated by saying hey Doctor, I'm concerned with my Father-in-law's driving because he's been running up on curbs and has had some close calls that could have resulted in some bad accidents.
...
The law is named HIPPA. Without written approval from the patient you may not discuss medical conditions of your relatives or even your adult children. Any Hey Doctor with an ounce of brains would end that conversation quickly. The fines are substantial. I believe about $10,000 per incident.


Just because you are finding others who agree with you does not make your opinion correct. Trying to make the conversation sound casual still does not change the law. You are not allowed to discuss medical conditions of others. Next you will try to say you are not really discussing a medical issue, but if you bring it up to your relative's doctor, you are making it a medical issue.


Just because you think it is a good idea, you are also not legally permitted to disable or hide you relative's car. If you want to act in behalf of your relative, then you need to take the appropriate steps to obtain legal authority.
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Old 04-15-2016, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,947,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
...Again, feel free to show us what law has been violated by saying hey Doctor, I'm concerned with my Father-in-law's because he's been running up on curbs and has had some close calls that could have resulted in some bad accidents...
Nothing wrong with someone expressing his/her opinion about another person's driving to that person's physician and asking the physician to look into it. OTOH - the physician would be violating HIPAA (a law) by discussing/disclosing information about his patient without the patient's (written) consent. Robyn
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Old 04-15-2016, 02:14 PM
 
1,099 posts, read 665,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post

Just because you think it is a good idea, you are also not legally permitted to disable or hide you relative's car.
I never said anything of the sort. Stop making things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Nothing wrong with someone expressing his/her opinion about another person's driving to that person's physician and asking the physician to look into it. OTOH - the physician would be violating HIPAA (a law) by discussing/disclosing information about his patient without the patient's (written) consent. Robyn
Absolutely correct Robyn. No one would be asking for information to be disclosed. There is nothing wrong with someone asking a physician to look into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
The law is named HIPPA. Without written approval from the patient you may not discuss medical conditions of your relatives or even your adult children. Any Hey Doctor with an ounce of brains would end that conversation quickly. The fines are substantial. I believe about $10,000 per incident.


Just because you are finding others who agree with you does not make your opinion correct. Trying to make the conversation sound casual still does not change the law. You are not allowed to discuss medical conditions of others. Next you will try to say you are not really discussing a medical issue, but if you bring it up to your relative's doctor, you are making it a medical issue.
End of story...done with you.

Although it was not the intent of the law, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) has been interpreted and misapplied as a barrier to communication with the very people who have a deep and often lifelong relationship with elderly patients and who will be responsible for managing or providing care in the community. When a family member asks almost any question relating to a family member’s care and treatment, this is what they too often are likely to hear: “I can’t tell you because of HIPAA.” End of conversation.

This is a misinterpretation of HIPAA. Here is what the Health and Human Services’ Office of Civil Rights, responsible for monitoring HIPAA, says: “The HIPAA Privacy Rule at 45 CFR 164.510(b) specifically permits covered entities to share information that is directly relevant to the involvement of a spouse, family members, friends, or other persons identified by a patient, in the patient’s care or payment for health care.” The only exception is if the patient objects.

I won't be worrying about an internet poster that continuously ignores the ramifications of inactions over and over and over and over.

Last edited by bodyforlife99; 04-15-2016 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 04-15-2016, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,947,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
Very nice discussion, but I think there is one major point that has been omitted. When an older driver does become impaired, what is the appropriate action that can be taken? Ideally the issue could be reported to the DMV or to the individual's doctor.
One can report a driver to the Florida DMV anonymously. I've done it a couple of times after incidents involving old drivers who were obviously operating on about 2 cylinders. Police will sometimes report a driver and/or order a driver to get re-tested if there's an accident/incident. That happened to someone who lived in my late FIL's SNF (and the DMV took away his license).

Quote:
It seem that those steps are often not helpful.
Correct (although I never found out what happened to my anonymous reports). Seems from reading this and similar threads that some people will drive even if they lose their licenses.

Quote:
So some individuals want to take action themselves. First they start with recommendations, then coercion, and then by doing such things as disabling or removing the car.
I don't approve of that. If you're dealing with an adult who is legally competent - then about all you can do is tell the person what the legal ramifications of his/her actions might be. Which may well involve losing a lot of money in a lawsuit resulting from an accident. If the adult isn't legally competent (has dementia) - and happens to be your parent - then the appropriate way to proceed IMO is to have the person declared legally incompetent and then do whatever is necessary to protect the incompetent person (including taking away a car). Note that are are various ways to deal with legal incompetence before it happens - to make the process easier/more private (in Florida - we have something called - more or less - a Pre-Need Guardianship filing).

FWIW - people with dementia can do things that are as dumb or dumber than driving a car. They can get into questionable investments. Or make ridiculous purchases (a neighbor of ours with early onset dementia lost a ton in penny stocks and bought a $2k riding lawnmower for his postage stamp sized lawn before his wife had him declared legally incompetent). Robyn
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