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Old 04-17-2016, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,581 posts, read 17,574,904 times
Reputation: 27672

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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
Yeh, stay out of other people's business. These days, from what I've read, it's the very young people who don't understand how to use credit cards. They think it's play money. Maybe someone should tell them.

But for anyone above millennial age, leave them alone. The information is out out there and available already. I used to love investing until my ex, a CPA who knew all the sneaky tricks, stole my investments and most of my savings. I knew what I was doing but even smart people can be conned by a con artist. (Bernie Maldoff?) So I don't want or need to be lectured. It's over and done with and no one could have known what he was doing. I think there's too much nagging on this forum about money. Retirement is about a lot more things than just money anyway.

Sure, advise the millennials about not buying so many gadgets and using credit cards wisely. But once they're past that age, stop nagging. If they don't want to know, they will suffer the consequences later.
The anti-CC arguments get old.

I am a Millennial and have had a Discover cash back, AMEX cash back, and an Amazon Visa with rewards for many years. These cards generally generate $50+ in cash back or gift cards each month - more than I pay in interest. They're a wonderful tool when used responsibly.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:05 PM
 
Location: NC Piedmont
3,911 posts, read 2,879,340 times
Reputation: 6291
Perry, I took those comments to mean they were talking about the subject of this thread - should we be scolding or shaming people who aren't doing enough to prepare. I didn't think they meant others shouldn't advise in threads where quextions are being asked. I think this is more about how proactive we as individuals and we as a society should be in getting everyone to do what they can to prepare for the future and whether we should abandon the stick for the carrot. That is my take anyway.

This is a tough issue. We do need to realize that a big chunk of the population barely makes end meet. IMO, we need a strong safety net and should help those who really need it. But a lot of people are doing well enough to provide for their own retirement but aren't saving enough.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:50 PM
 
Location: SoCal
6,069 posts, read 9,531,033 times
Reputation: 5807
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
I agree but more and more we have government that wants to take care of people that simply failed to do it themselves and in every case it costs the rest of us either in taxes or a reduction in some other area.

Unfortunately we live in a period that distorts consequences.
In "every" case? Cite, please, for the bolded part.

People fail to take care of themselves for many reasons. Many (most?) are beyond the control of those who are 'failing'. The obvious examples are physical and/or mental disability. There's also institutionalized disadvantage resulting in societal disability.

I confess that I don't have cites either, but I read/hear more often than not that government aid to those in need results in savings to society in general rather than costs.

Last edited by oddstray; 04-17-2016 at 09:03 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 10:01 PM
 
14,260 posts, read 23,995,588 times
Reputation: 20076
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
The anti-CC arguments get old.

I am a Millennial and have had a Discover cash back, AMEX cash back, and an Amazon Visa with rewards for many years. These cards generally generate $50+ in cash back or gift cards each month - more than I pay in interest. They're a wonderful tool when used responsibly.


And if you read the materials supplies to merchants by Chase, American Express, and Bank of America, they all tell you that when a business accepts credit cards, the average transaction increases approximately 18%.

That is why they are happy to give you the 2%.
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Old 04-17-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: RVA
2,167 posts, read 1,266,787 times
Reputation: 4460
Quote:
Originally Posted by oddstray View Post
In "every" case? Cite, please, for the bolded part.

People fail to take care of themselves for many reasons. Many (most?) are beyond the control of those who are 'failing'. The obvious examples are physical and/or mental disability. There's also institutionalized disadvantage resulting in societal disability.

I confess that I don't have cites either, but I read/hear more often than not that government aid to those in need results in savings to society in general rather than costs.
I don't think a cite is needed. Are you arguing that a large percentage of retirees, current and future, are in poor financial straits NOT of their own making, and that they require government assistance, which always means higher tax payer burden is not true?

Few would argue against helping those that can't help themselves, but it's not like any agency looks back on historical earnings and says "Well, heck, you were just a lazy spendthrift that wouldn't do the math and lived beyond your means and now the rest of us are stuck with the bill for your bad decisions." It only looks at current lack of income for that year, so it is impossible to separate those that deserve assistance, and those that don't.

It is way too complex an issue for a simple solution, but one where almost any method that is effective at getting people to be responsible for their own future is worth investigating. Shaming works on only those that feel shame. It doesn't work on politicians, used car salesman, and scammers. ;-)
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Old 04-18-2016, 12:58 AM
 
729 posts, read 321,073 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
I really don't care what other people do. It's their life and their choice.

But I will say that the only thing that changes behavior is consequences.
Came here to say this.
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Old 04-18-2016, 02:19 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
21,472 posts, read 14,382,943 times
Reputation: 15871
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfingduo View Post
This is a small article that we seem to do here often. Some of the things we say to people are meant to shame them into making this decision or that. Notice people I said some not all. Some of our points are made nicely but hopefully the tips and points we make for folks are taken and evaluated. I think this is the beauty of this forum.

Anyway the reason I started this thread is something I found out on the net. Here is a quote from it that I thought we should consider as we give advise to those who are searching.



I never heard of Chris Ramsey until this article so I am not promoting him. I think what I am promoting here is for us to understand that some people do need tough love and others gentle persuasion. Use facts not fear to make your points.
Human societies always use one of two powerful emotions as a means of peaceful social control. One is guilt and the other is shame.

Guilt is the European tool. It comes from the European idea of God, among other things. The Christian God is ever-watching, omnipotent, and judgemental. So if a person does something that offends God, the person may go to hell as eternal punishment, even if only the individual person ever knows what the offense was.

This creates an individual set of brakes that stop a person from doing whatever they want, whenever they want. When a person has feelings of guilt over one thing, that thing is seldom repeated if the feeling is strong enough. What differs is the guilt. Some people have a very strong sense of guilt, while others have none at all, but our society as a whole depends on this to put limits on our behavior in everyday life and affairs.

In Asia, individual people have very little sense of guilt. If they can commit some minor offense to another and get away with no minor punishment, they will do it and never regret it. (Regret is more tied to guilt).

But if they are caught and publicly shamed for the minor bad, the shame rubs off on their family, their friends, and on to strangers. The shamed become outcasts to varying degrees. In societies where everyone depends on cooperation for survival and prosperity, shame is a much more powerful social control than guilt.

The Asian Gods reflect this. Their idea of God's punishment is being cast out of paradise to go on forever alone in the afterlife. Far less eternal punishment, as being cast out is spiritual punishment enough. This developed because Asia is generally a slightly easier area for human survival than cold Europe, so it became more highly populated.

When there are more people living in close proximity to each other, everyday peacefulness is more of a necessity. Both emotions are tied closely together; guilt comes from shame and shame can result from guilt.
Regret is another powerful emotion that arises later from either shame or guilt and also acts as a check on behavior the society deems to be bad. Embarrassment is another. All are distinctly human emotions that are universal, but have varying power as ways of social control.

In our modern society, both have become closer to being equally powerful. When America was essentially unpopulated, shame was the more powerful tool because every human really needed to be with others to stay alive.
When we became more populous and basic survival became easier, guilt became more powerful than shame, because we could spread out in small groups and needed each other for survival less.

So each individual has a set of internal brakes, not the brakes that come from a tighter-knit society that has to stay close together to stay alive. The more densely concentrated our society becomes, the more shame will take over again.

Some people never have feelings of either, and they always have a harder time getting through life in some way than the rest of us. Hardened criminals get that title because they usually feel neither, and they typically get punished more because of it. They have no inner set of brakes to check their behavior, so they do what they want from moment to moment.

That's why criminals undergo a process of shame during the period of capture to trial, and once found guilty, are expected to display guilt as a way of expunging the shame.

Shame, guilt, embarrassment, regret, and other emotions are seldom alone in a person. Every emotion is tied to another inside all of us, and they all act as controls on us, as we are a social species and have developed many ways to keep more basic emotions under control.

All mammals have the basic emotions for fear, anger, sexual arousal, and feelings of affection for their offspring, but very few animals share our complex emotions. Survival rules all.

That's why a male herd animal like a zebra stallion will instantly kill one of his own offspring if the foal is born crippled as a way to keep the herd alive, why a lion will kill cubs that are not his, and why females of other species are just as likely to do the same.

Humans depend on each other in much more complex ways for survival, and that's why, in part, we have more complex emotions. We are all geared to read other's emotions as well.
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Old 04-18-2016, 05:31 AM
 
674 posts, read 839,522 times
Reputation: 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
The first step is to establish universal availability. The 401k plan is the greatest retirement innovation since Medicare, but it requires an employer to set one up. Many if not most don't bother. Two or three States have plans to make them available. Let's get the rest on board. And make them available to contract employees.
I never had the 401k available through my employers. It is an assumption that everyone offers this. Employer had over 100 employees.
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Old 04-18-2016, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,331,482 times
Reputation: 13779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryinva View Post
I don't think a cite is needed. Are you arguing that a large percentage of retirees, current and future, are in poor financial straits NOT of their own making, and that they require government assistance, which always means higher tax payer burden is not true?

Few would argue against helping those that can't help themselves, but it's not like any agency looks back on historical earnings and says "Well, heck, you were just a lazy spendthrift that wouldn't do the math and lived beyond your means and now the rest of us are stuck with the bill for your bad decisions." It only looks at current lack of income for that year, so it is impossible to separate those that deserve assistance, and those that don't.

It is way too complex an issue for a simple solution, but one where almost any method that is effective at getting people to be responsible for their own future is worth investigating. Shaming works on only those that feel shame. It doesn't work on politicians, used car salesman, and scammers. ;-)
I don't think that Oddstray was saying that at all. He/she was responding to the poster who complained about "the government" providing support to those elderly who hadn't saved enough to support themselves on their savings alone in their old age.
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Old 04-18-2016, 06:30 AM
 
13,915 posts, read 7,411,228 times
Reputation: 25410
Veering back on-topic, I don't think that scolding and shaming are particularly good motivators for anything. For me, it's the consequences of my actions (or inactions) that guides my behavior. If you want to label it with one word: Fear

It's pretty clear to me that when the flood of ill-prepared late-Boomers hits retirement age, "the government" isn't going to be there to provide subsidized elderly housing, low-cost Cadillac health care, and Medicaid-paid nursing home care in my final years. There are simply too many of us and far too few who proactively funded their retirement years. It's not too difficult to project forward 15 years to where there are 15 or 20 year waiting lists for elderly housing. It's not too difficult to project forward 25 years to where Medicaid only funds very rudimentary nursing home care with 8 patients per ward. I'm assuming that Social Security will still be there for late-Boomers but Medicare is going to be much more expensive if I want the same level of coverage and I'm completely on my own if I land in assisted living or a nursing home unless I am OK with a hospital bed in a ward.

If you look at the national demographics, this problem is only going to get worse. We're very much seeing the movie "Idiocracy" come true before our eyes. Our birthrate for the affluent 50% of the country looks just like Japan, South Korea, and Northern Europe. That group is seeing population contraction. Our birthrate for the bottom-20% who are functionally illiterate is enormous. The economic outcomes for the families currently in the top-50% are quite good. For most, their children will be as prosperous as their parents despite the whining of Millennials who aren't yet in their peak earning years. The problem is that 20 years from now, that will only be 40% of the country because of the low birthrate for that group. The bottom-60% will be dragging down the average and putting enormous stress on social services and entitlement programs. It all looks very grim 50 years from now unless something changes in a very dramatic way.
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