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Old 04-19-2016, 12:09 PM
 
Location: NC Piedmont
4,023 posts, read 3,782,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
We have a safety net in-place for seniors. Are these IRAs for something above-and-beyond, or are these to replace the Safety Net?
SS is not a complete net. If someone only has SS and was never a high earner, they will need other assistance to make ends meet. The IRAs are for people who should be able to save enough to combine with SS and not need further assistance.
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Old 04-19-2016, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,624 posts, read 19,055,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfingduo View Post
Yes. I think they should create a portable 401k using index funds and restricting transactions to keep fees low.
Okay, I can see where having portable 401(k)s make sense, since the nature of the job market and employment in general have evolved over the last 50 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
Personally, I believe that the Federal Government should make available the SAME plan that it offers to Federal employees to all citizens. That way, everyone could participate in a plan that offers adequate investment choices at the lowest possible costs. That would relieve employers, especially smaller ones, of the hassle of offering such a plan and all of the various compliance requirements.
Yeah, well, somehow I just don't see that happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
We already entrusted the govt. with our retirement funds. Its called Social Security. Yet there's nothing secure about it, and the govt. has spent a lot of that money in ways it was never intended to be spent. Then you want to put your other retirement funds in their hands also?
That gets to be a bit scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
Comparison to SS is not valid either. SS was created as Social Insurance, as a retirement's safety net for poor, destitute, homeless seniors.
Sort of correct. It was cobbled together from the 35 existing State-run social security-like programs for the benefit of everyone, especially those with a crystal ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach View Post
SS is not a complete net.
Everybody knows that, but what is the sense in forcing financially illiterate people into investing?

For them, a 401(k) ends up being a glorified savings account that can lose money.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:50 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
11,162 posts, read 7,593,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
Personally, I believe that the Federal Government should make available the SAME plan that it offers to Federal employees to all citizens. That way, everyone could participate in a plan that offers adequate investment choices at the lowest possible costs. That would relieve employers, especially smaller ones, of the hassle of offering such a plan and all of the various compliance requirements.
Oh gosh, what I wouldn't give to participate in the TSP!
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,316 posts, read 4,173,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach View Post
SS is not a complete net. If someone only has SS and was never a high earner, they will need other assistance to make ends meet.
Even SS is in fact above-and-beyond the Safety Net. The basic Safety Net for poor seniors is food stamps, free housing, free healthcare, free transportation, free phone, cash assistance, etc.

These are available to low and very-low income seniors, even those who don't get SS.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,316 posts, read 4,173,203 times
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So let me get this straight -- workers can open up an IRA for themselves, in about 10 seconds, and same amount that Govt wants to take away, said worker can auto-transfer to his IRA.

So if said worker is not capable of even lifting a finger, year-after-year, paycheck-after-paycheck, and put aside same amount as Govt tells him to -- maybe that worker who can't lift a finger for himself, should prepare himself to live on food stamps.

Rather than start a program, which we all know will end up being wealth re-distribution as everything else. We know where this will end up on.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:56 PM
 
13,395 posts, read 13,418,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
So let me get this straight -- workers can open up an IRA for themselves, in about 10 seconds, and same amount that Govt wants to take away, said worker can auto-transfer to his IRA.

So if said worker is not capable of even lifting a finger, year-after-year, paycheck-after-paycheck, and put aside same amount as Govt tells him to -- maybe that worker who can't lift a finger for himself, should prepare himself to live on food stamps.

Rather than start a program, which we all know will end up being wealth re-distribution as everything else. We know where this will end up on.
There's no such thing as wealth redistribution in America. I agree with the rest of your post.
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Old 04-20-2016, 07:24 AM
 
Location: NC Piedmont
4,023 posts, read 3,782,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
There's no such thing as wealth redistribution in America. I agree with the rest of your post.
Actually, there is if you consider taxing the more fortunate members of society to provide basic services for the less fortunate to be wealth redistribution and a lot of conservatives do consider that as such. If you go a step further, a lot of regulations are implicitly forcing it. Without minimum wage laws, unions and corporate oversight, capitalism would naturally create a society that would look a lot like feudal Europe with aristocrats, peasants and not much in between. The question isn't so much whether or not there should be some controls; it's striking the right balance. It's a delicate operation and our government has become a dull axe.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,316 posts, read 4,173,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach View Post
Actually, there is if you consider taxing the more fortunate members of society to provide basic services for the less fortunate to be wealth redistribution and a lot of conservatives do consider that as such. If you go a step further, a lot of regulations are implicitly forcing it. Without minimum wage laws, unions and corporate oversight, capitalism would naturally create a society that would look a lot like feudal Europe with aristocrats, peasants and not much in between.
Feudalism, Capitalism or even Socialism for that matter -- they are the same -- they all create a large working class, and a small group of ownership.

Capitalism is the only one social order that natural wants, such as liberty, human rights, upward mobility, emancipation all these enlightment ideals have found their home. Feudalism and Socialism's records are atrocious.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:02 PM
 
Location: NC Piedmont
4,023 posts, read 3,782,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
Feudalism, Capitalism or even Socialism for that matter -- they are the same -- they all create a large working class, and a small group of ownership.

Capitalism is the only one social order that natural wants, such as liberty, human rights, upward mobility, emancipation all these enlightment ideals have found their home. Feudalism and Socialism's records are atrocious.
I think you are alluding to Democratic Capitalism in particular; the Social-market Economy is also a form of capitalism. As far as the "natural wants" you list goes, our record in the US is not exactly stellar unless you exclude a lot of our history and/or ethnic groups. I don't think they are that tightly coupled. But we are not likely to agree, so I should try to get back on track...

This particular idea as proposed does not have anything to do with redistribution; just making it easy for people to participate in a retirement plan. This is something that people can do without the program, but I think there is a high likelihood of greater participation if all you have to do is check a box and greater still if you had to fill out a form to opt out. More participation is in personally funded retirement plans should result in less people in need of publicly funded assistance during their retirement years or people in need of less assistance. It won't fix it, but i should help a little and I don't see how it can hurt.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Ubique
4,316 posts, read 4,173,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach View Post
I think you are alluding to Democratic Capitalism in particular; the Social-market Economy is also a form of capitalism.
I am not alluding anything. Capitalism, just as Socialism, and even Feudalism come in may variants. In fact many societies have components of two or even three. But as you said, this would have to be way off-topic, so I am staying on general terms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach View Post
As far as the "natural wants" you list goes, our record in the US is not exactly stellar unless you exclude a lot of our history and/or ethnic groups. I don't think they are that tightly coupled. But we are not likely to agree, so I should try to get back on track...
We can't really exclude history. I fact I am including entire history, without exclusions. Let's take slavery for example. Capitalism is the only regime that abolished it. No question that Capitalist societies have much better humanity records than non-Capitalist ones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach View Post
This particular idea as proposed does not have anything to do with redistribution;
As I said, it may start as benevolent, worker-centric, non-re-distributionary policy. But it will evolve as everything else and it will become Govt' mandated wealth re-distribution. It have never not happened this way.

I am trying to address your points one by one. I would appreciate if you don't skip some important one I made.

For example isn't this Program a third layer of the Safety Net? Two layers (Welfare, then SS) are not enough?

If two layers that Fed Govt mandated to be Safety Net have not been successful (thus the "need" for the 3rd one), then why a third one would any different? Remember, politicians and supporters like yourself of these Central-Govt Mandates promised us that SS would solve the senior's poverty problem. Then we were promised that Welfare would solve the poverty too.

We keep doing the same thing and expect a different result? When is this ever gonna stop?
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