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I don't want the government protecting me from myself by dictating my private behaviors, but I do want the government to protect me from shoddy buildings so they don't collapse on me; from poisons being dumped into my water, food, and air; from age discrimination that will wreck my life if it is allowed; from abuse by government agencies; from theft by private interests; from strip joints opening up next to my house; from a rubber burning plant run in my neighborhood, and so forth.
Some protections are needed because they are actually controlling criminal behavior that without consumer protections are accepted. You and I would go to prison for embezzling money, but lenders legally used deceptive means to drive up individuals' debts and there was loads of that before Obama was elected. Banks, credit card companies, and financial aid lenders were using all kinds of deceptive means to drive up interest rates to levels that used to be called usury, and was therefore illegal, and then the fees and interest rates piled up added debt onto people until they owed far more than they did for whatever they'd initially purchased or borrowed for. It's better now, but they are still getting away with too much.
I myself ended up paying about $2000.00 on my and my daughter's student loans that we never owed. We'd never had a late or missed payment, and I know that because I was making the payments for both of our loans, but when I went to pay the loans off, we both had an extra $1000.00 tacked on our totals. Why? Because the lenders or processing companies made "mistakes" on our accounts and when I tried to get the mistakes straightened out, the loans had been sold and moved from processor to processor multiple times and that was used as an excuse to not "find" where the mistake happened. I was told, repeatedly, "This is what was on the account when we took it over." I finally just paid the money for what was essentially pure theft because they ignored all of my registered letters and were going to slam our credit ratings if I didn't. (Now, when I take out a mortgage or any kind of loan, I borrow only from my credit union that promises me it won't sell my loans, and if there is a mistake, someone there has to look me in the eye until it is straightened out.)
Insurance companies are also engaging in predatory practices and cheating Americans. So are cell phone, cable, and internet companies. Physicians' billing offices make mistakes on coding that cost physicians money if the patients' bills aren't driven up to pay for the loss of revenue, so they go after patients for money the patients don't really owe according to their medical plans.
The list goes on and on. Preying on and bleeding the masses of our resources eventually wrecks the economy.
Actually, I was young in the 1970s, coming of age in the early 1980s, and we had it way better than you do. We could still get college grants and low-interest federal direct student loans, so any young person who wanted to go to college in this country could go regardless of income. Boomers went to college en masse compared to previous generations and the country benefited. Not only did we have a better educated society, but most of the loans were paid back so even though the interest rates were low, the country received back more than it loaned its college students.
We had consumer protections so we couldn't be railroaded into deep debt.
Businesses had straightforward prices and policies that were simple and easy to follow so we weren't forced to watch our backs constantly like all of us do now. Anything less would have been at least unacceptable to the public and ruin a company's reputation, if not illegal.
We could rent apartments with our friends without background and credit rating checks. If we had the first month's rent and deposit (if a deposit was even required) to hand over, we were rented to. When we moved out of a rental, property owners couldn't tack on added charges for what was their responsibility as the cost of doing business, but now that's routine.
Businesses and landlords couldn't use the court system and credit bureaus to force us to pay for things we didn't really owe them, but now they routinely do it to young people and low-income people. It's become an industry itself.
We weren't arrested and chewed up by the criminal justice system, or sent to prison, for merely making stupid mistakes, even if they caused injury to someone. People understood that intent matters and that mistakes in judgment happen so not every injury or near miss required involving the criminal justice system. Now, every injury, even potential for injury, sends the criminal justice system after people in an attempt to criminalize them. For young people, that cultural response has ruined so many of their lives before they've even finished developing.
We could make youthful mistakes, even pretty serious mistakes, and they didn't follow us around haunting and ruining our opportunities the rest of our lives because not every move we made was tracked and recorded permanently for anyone willing to pay a fee to access it and use it against us.
There were plentiful low-income clinics offering quality healthcare for a sliding scale fee or for free. I left home when I was seventeen, so I used them and Planned Parenthood until I was an adult with healthcare insurance. They were great!
There were government Displaced Homemaker programs to help women who'd been homemakers get training and help to move into the job market.
Social Security benefits were paid to children of a widowed parent until those children were 18. Not anymore.
Social Security payments to those children were paid longer if those children went onto college. My cousin received her social security check she'd been receiving after he father died until she graduated college with an undergraduate degree.
We still had a right to privacy and civil rights protections that no longer exist as they once did.
How can we have another bustling recovery when there has been a massive shift of the nation's wealth from the masses to only a few that continues unabated, competition has been virtually eliminated because we've ignored our anti-monopoly laws and allowed continual corporate mergers, consumers and small businesses are shafted at every turn, and the strongest growth sectors for the last 20 or more years have been service industries and prisons?
In 1970s and early 1980s, we still had far more protections than Americans have now, and young people are paying a heavy price for the loss of those protections.
I am not an extreme libertarian that believes in no government regulation at all. IMO, there are tons of quality of life improvements that I use every day, even far above and beyond what was available ten years ago when I was 20. Some are from the private sector, others likely due to public sector legislation or favorable policy, but that's neither here nor there in the context of this thread.
Some of your complaints are simply due to technological advancement. Basic skiptracing can now be done by anyone with access to the internet and a few bucks - it's no longer solely in the realm of professionals. Privacy is decreasing with corporations tracking more, the government tracking more, and hackers and other thieves stealing info from the prior two entities.
Maybe some criminal penalties are too harsh now, but others weren't harsh enough then. My grandfather has roughly a dozen DUIs, multiple felony theft convictions (worked for a NASA contractor in the 60s and stole/sold equipment from NASA), domestic violence convictions, etc. He's straightened up in his old age, but DUI especially was not treated as a serious matter then. He'd be locked up for life now before he could have done half the stuff he did.
In the context of retirement, I think perhaps one of the most serious issues facing younger folks today are prior criminal convictions. One criminal conviction, often of any type in this employment market, and it's hard to rally back from that. I know folks who have had drug related arrests (even if it's just pot) and other types of arrests, and have honestly seemed to reform themselves, but they can't get decent enough jobs to where they can consistently pay routine bills, much less fund their retirement.
If someone does something stupid and gets a record (public urination while drunk could get you a sex offender charge), you can't just drive to another place now and start over as an unknown quantity. It's almost impossible for some folks to rebuild their lives and get on a stable track for the future.
On this whole "we had it better in 1980" thing....
I entered the workforce in 1981. We had double-digit inflation and the unemployment rate was higher than at the peak of the Great Recession. My inflation-adjusted telephone phone bill was about $125.00 and you'd have to be really careful ever making long distance calls or the thieves at the AT&T monopoly would be getting $250 instead of $125. There was no such thing as internet. Al Gore hadn't invented it yet. If you wanted a phone in your car, you put an expensive box in your trunk, a huge antenna on the bumper, and paid an inflation-adjusted $10.00/minute to make a call. Your car was really unreliable. You bought a bottle of champagne if the thing rolled the odometer since it was so unusual. Most American cars were junk that had expensive repairs. The Japanese cars were better but not that much better. Your cable bill, if you could get cable, was cheap because there was no expensive content like ESPN. You got better picture quality on the broadcast channels and MTV back when MTV was music videos instead of reality TV.
Other than college costs, I don't see any advantage. Most of my friends who graduated in 1981 had problems getting jobs. The big money pits today like smartphone and internet bill didn't exist. Cars cost more per mile then because they depreciated so quickly and had such high repair costs. From what I see, most 20-somethings don't have much of a work ethic. If you have that, you're going to have a very good outcome.
I entered in 1980. I was HS class of '77 but I ended up just doing some college and tech school. I had 6 jobs during my first 15 years (3 in a short span were 2 underfunded start ups and another company that hired me just to complete some work started at one of them) and then found my current position, which I have been at for over 21 years. I have never been out of work and had an increase almost every year. There have been so many "if only I had realized" technologies and/or investments I lose count. The opportunities are still there but the competition for them is greater IMO.
I am not an extreme libertarian that believes in no government regulation at all. IMO, there are tons of quality of life improvements that I use every day, even far above and beyond what was available ten years ago when I was 20. Some are from the private sector, others likely due to public sector legislation or favorable policy, but that's neither here nor there in the context of this thread.
Some of your complaints are simply due to technological advancement. Basic skiptracing can now be done by anyone with access to the internet and a few bucks - it's no longer solely in the realm of professionals. Privacy is decreasing with corporations tracking more, the government tracking more, and hackers and other thieves stealing info from the prior two entities.
Maybe some criminal penalties are too harsh now, but others weren't harsh enough then. My grandfather has roughly a dozen DUIs, multiple felony theft convictions (worked for a NASA contractor in the 60s and stole/sold equipment from NASA), domestic violence convictions, etc. He's straightened up in his old age, but DUI especially was not treated as a serious matter then. He'd be locked up for life now before he could have done half the stuff he did.
In the context of retirement, I think perhaps one of the most serious issues facing younger folks today are prior criminal convictions. One criminal conviction, often of any type in this employment market, and it's hard to rally back from that. I know folks who have had drug related arrests (even if it's just pot) and other types of arrests, and have honestly seemed to reform themselves, but they can't get decent enough jobs to where they can consistently pay routine bills, much less fund their retirement.
If someone does something stupid and gets a record (public urination while drunk could get you a sex offender charge), you can't just drive to another place now and start over as an unknown quantity. It's almost impossible for some folks to rebuild their lives and get on a stable track for the future.
This is one I wrestle with. I was a juvenile delinquent. I only had one arrest with the record sealed, but I got away with a lot more. I drove drunk, was pulled over and talked my way out of arrests a couple of times, once being driven home and once being followed ("you touch paint on either side and you don't even have to look back"). High schools just flushed drugs. When I was caught in a compromising situation with a girl who wasn't much younger than I was but I was 18, I was yelled at, chased off and warned that there would be big trouble if she was pregnant but since she wasn't, that was the end of it. I eventually grew out of it. Today any of that would be devastating. It absolutely does not make it okay, but I grew up with an older brother who was doing all those things with no real consequence as were many of his friends and my friends. At the time, it just seemed like I was normal, as crazy as that sounds.
We were part of the stupid "full adult at 18" experiment, so my senior year of high school I could buy liquor and go to bars legally. That was a really bad idea.
I did end up leaving the area I grew up in partly because word of mouth did catch up to me at my first job. They did not fire me but made me turn in my key and it derailed me from advancing. Lots of people like data entry operators and trainees didn't have keys, but to get one and then have it taken back was rare and not a good thing. Leaving also meant that I wasn't around friends who still had the bad habits.
The reason I wrestle with this is because it is hard to resolve the idea that it was okay for me to get away with all that and that now kids should be held accountable but I think they should, for the most part.
There was a time when most kids had a paring knife in their lunch box... try it now and no more neighborhood school for you...
Just like playing cops and robbers at recess... just using your finger and pointing it has resulted in suspensions.
My Grandmother never bought anything unless cash in hand/in the bank... the only exception was a modest mortgage which was paid off in half the time.
She was devastated when I proudly showed off my Sears credit card... was sure I was on the road to ruin... I had been working and paying into social security since age 12.
Growing up... just about all the kids I knew had jobs... people simply would not believe anyone in their 20's would not have job experience or a driver's license...
The paper carrier was 13 and worked 7 days a week... collected money, billed customers, etc... there was a wait list for those wanting his job.
On this whole "we had it better in 1980" thing....
I entered the workforce in 1981. We had double-digit inflation and the unemployment rate was higher than at the peak of the Great Recession. My inflation-adjusted telephone phone bill was about $125.00 and you'd have to be really careful ever making long distance calls or the thieves at the AT&T monopoly would be getting $250 instead of $125. There was no such thing as internet. Al Gore hadn't invented it yet. If you wanted a phone in your car, you put an expensive box in your trunk, a huge antenna on the bumper, and paid an inflation-adjusted $10.00/minute to make a call. Your car was really unreliable. You bought a bottle of champagne if the thing rolled the odometer since it was so unusual. Most American cars were junk that had expensive repairs. The Japanese cars were better but not that much better. Your cable bill, if you could get cable, was cheap because there was no expensive content like ESPN. You got better picture quality on the broadcast channels and MTV back when MTV was music videos instead of reality TV.
Other than college costs, I don't see any advantage. Most of my friends who graduated in 1981 had problems getting jobs. The big money pits today like smartphone and internet bill didn't exist. Cars cost more per mile then because they depreciated so quickly and had such high repair costs. From what I see, most 20-somethings don't have much of a work ethic. If you have that, you're going to have a very good outcome.
Amen to that! Mortgage rates/car loans (on vehicles more reliable than ever, almost all with a/c, incredible safety features and other bells/whistles that are standard) are dirt cheap. I pay $50 for internet to my desktop and unlimited WiFi...an exceptional deal! Information overload really. Don't need a smart phone, just a flip to phone and text. I can understand the bill and if I can't, I call or chat with a Verizon rep and get it straightened out. They DO have competition. Same with insurance companies and their so-called "predatory" practices. I can pick and choose and usually get a cheaper rate if the rates start going up (which they always have). Don't want to pay "usury" interest rates on credit cards? Don't carry a balance. Most anything else about businesses can be checked on or verified in a couple clicks vs. the old days when you had to FIND the right phone number and call once, twice or even more times to get the right information if you even get the right section or department.
Does anyone know someone that is of retirement age but has very little to no savings or retirement to speak of?
Yes, and this person's life sucks, in my opinion. Started drawing SS early at 63, still has to work at age 67 because his SS check is skimpy. Has diabetes, so not in good health. Has minimal or no savings, despite a 20 year quest on my part to try to get him to save (for anything, much less retirement). I've seen worse cases, for sure, but he's one hospital trip away from bankruptcy. That's not how I live now and definitely not how I want to be living my life in my 60s.
I know another person who is in a worse situation in most ways. Lives in subsidized housing. 1/3 of her skimpy SS check goes to rent. Even a modest unexpected expense throws her out of whack. Can't even afford to have internet service. Her apartment building looks nice on the outside but has been taken over by illegal immigrant drug dealers and their kids. Due to age, health issues, and few resources, moving somewhere else may be possible, but is very difficult.
Both of them have pretty good attitudes toward life. But I don't want to be spending old age fighting those sorts of battles. It's bad enough when you're young.
Interesting both folks experienced physical/sexual abuse in childhood. That tends to really mess people up. People with abuse in their backgrounds tend to be uncomfortable with or think they don't "deserve" financial stability. Childhood abuse really messes people up and it's a very tough pattern to change, even when they become aware of how it has affected them.
So, many of the baby boomer era parents never reached the retirement age to collect a pension, and many more died only a few years following receiving their pensions.
Yes, so many people on CD and elsewhere talk about pensions as if everyone had one. Most people never had one, even at their peak, it was right around 50%. And as you said, generous pensions were possible only because most people either died before collecting one or only collected them for a few short years.
It's the same issue we have with Social Security. People are taking out more than they put into the system at least partly because they're living longer.
Every county in Illinois is represented. If you want to do all 50 states, D.C., Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Guam, knock yourself out. I have better things to do with my time.
I don't have a retirement plan. The thought of it doesn't even compute. By choice, I have lived a nomadic life, and never built up a healthy company matched 401k. It doesn't bother for a couple reasons, because I don't think I'll have the problem of outliving my money.
And as long as I can think and move around, I'll keep working. Being able to work seems more and more like something that keeps people alive. So the thought of not being able to retire doesn't fill me with dread. What I dread is not being able to work.
The point is that you want to give yourself options. Working because you want to vs. working because you have to are two totally different universes. And being forced out of the workforce can happen at any point...then what do you do? I, personally, don't want to find out.
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