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10-26-2016, 10:58 AM
 16,611 posts, read 14,091,160 times Reputation: 20572

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Petunia 100 It is entirely possible as the statistical average for each group is given.
Do you not understand how standard deviation is measured? You take the summation of each individuals salary subtracted from the average, divided by the mean. If you smooth out the data by using averages instead of the actual salaries, than you have lost all the "noise" that standard deviation actually measures. H

Not for nothing, as a researcher and research instructor this is literally what I do for a living.

Quote:
 The source for the article is the 2013 CalSTRS Annual Financial Report, not this Chad Aldeman person.
No the article and subsequent manipulation of the data was done an author at teacherpension.org a front for Bellwether which is run primarily by Chad Aldeman using data he took from the report.

I could take those numbers and massage them, cherry pick what to include and not, and get a very different story as well. That is why it is so important to actually understand what statistics are appropriate for each data set. Using median, and then distributions is not appropriate for a sample which is likely bimodal.

Quote:
 California is the second largest employer of teachers in this country.
So? There are not quite 300K teachers in California, they make up about 8% of the teachers nationwide despite being the most populous state in the country. Using one state, and less than 10% of a group to represent all, is also bad statistics when we know they are not a homogenous group.

Quote:
 I have not suggested that teachers should not have traditional pensions. I have disagreed with the statement that a pair of retired teachers drawing two pensions totaling 120k - 200k are imaginary. I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated that they are not imaginary.
No your "source" does not differentiate between teachers and admins. That 100K retirement is going to include many if not mostly administrators whose salaries are much higher. It is disingenuous at best to use number that represent people who retired as administrators and call them "teachers" just because they all pay into the same pension systems, or that they were teachers years before they retired.

Even if we use the numbers given by your "source" less than 2% of all teachers nationwide get a pension big enough that if they lived with a teacher with an identical pension they would get to 120K. To get to the 200K number (ignoring all of the admins) that would be 0.002% of teachers leaving with a person with an identical pension (statistically how would they even find each other?).

So is it imaginary? Maybe not, but it is not even a tiny bit close to representing what most let alone the typical teacher is living off of. It is like using Bill Belichicks salary to justify cutting pay for the local rec league coaches salary. Meaningless at best, dishonest at worst.

10-26-2016, 12:27 PM
 Location: RVA 2,172 posts, read 1,270,292 times Reputation: 4492
^^^excellent post !!! Positive rep given.

10-26-2016, 12:27 PM
 Location: Albuquerque NM 1,662 posts, read 1,529,045 times Reputation: 3650
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Serious Conversation People have a right to move where they want, but transplant pensioners from wealthy areas to poorer ones also need to be cognizant of the fact that their pension may be more than many of the local residents make working full time, and that this is a cause of legitimate stress. Is it "fair" that two interchangeable teachers, one being in a rich Massachusetts school system and one in a poor Tennessee school system, could end up with massive differences in pensions at retirement? Is the MA teacher more valuable than the TN teacher? The TN teacher is likely to barely scrimp by in retirement locally, while the MA teacher can come to TN, sell their home with tons of equity in MA, and come to TN and live like a king. Furthermore, there's also frequently an attitude when transplants from wealthy areas come to poor ones - they often look down on the locals and seem to always be going "but this isn't the way it's done in !"
This isn't just an issue in the southern states but also applies to certain western states where wealthy retirees and workers, in some cases, are relocating. It drives up housing prices, rents, and infrastructure costs, increases the competition for the few good jobs while creating more low paying service jobs, etc. TN seems to have a very regressive tax structure where food is taxed but most income is not taxed. Perhaps TN legislators should be looking for ways to increase taxation in a progressive way to pay for infrastructure and to provide more services for the poor.

10-26-2016, 12:46 PM
 29,792 posts, read 34,889,516 times Reputation: 11715
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Serious Conversation People have a right to move where they want, but transplant pensioners from wealthy areas to poorer ones also need to be cognizant of the fact that their pension may be more than many of the local residents make working full time, and that this is a cause of legitimate stress. Is it "fair" that two interchangeable teachers, one being in a rich Massachusetts school system and one in a poor Tennessee school system, could end up with massive differences in pensions at retirement? Is the MA teacher more valuable than the TN teacher? The TN teacher is likely to barely scrimp by in retirement locally, while the MA teacher can come to TN, sell their home with tons of equity in MA, and come to TN and live like a king. Furthermore, there's also frequently an attitude when transplants from wealthy areas come to poor ones - they often look down on the locals and seem to always be going "but this isn't the way it's done in !"
The reality is that tax payers value teachers differently and often get what they paid for not in terms of quality always but in terms of who is willing to work for them at that salary. It is just the norm of supply and demand. The transplant while PERHAPS living like a king is paying taxes property, sales and income that are helping to pay the salaries of public employees in their new state.

One of the things it does do is to greater discrepancies between regions within a state which creates jurisdictional anger. North Carolina is a perfect example. Affluent transplants tend to congregate in the Raleigh/Durham, Charlotte/Mecklenburg and to a lesser extent Wilmington area along with other coastal areas. This creates increased affluence and amenities etc in those areas without bringing much direct benefit to distressed rural areas of the state. Even discrepancies can exist in adjacent and within counties depending on proximity to higher income areas. It is a dislocation issue that has been written about and pitted area against area in some states, especially Southern states.

Local/ regional areas are in competition for transplants as are states for the obvious economic benefit that can result. Folks with pensions are a boom to the state they relocate to and a serious hit to the state they move from. My previous local/state is paying my pension and health care with little or no current benefit while my new local is picking up revenue with no need to provide any revenue or services to provide it. Just gotta provide the roads and a few limited services, no schools or public assistance just take in the revenue

10-26-2016, 01:00 PM
 29,792 posts, read 34,889,516 times Reputation: 11715
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ABQ2015 This isn't just an issue in the southern states but also applies to certain western states where wealthy retirees and workers, in some cases, are relocating. It drives up housing prices, rents, and infrastructure costs, increases the competition for the few good jobs while creating more low paying service jobs, etc. TN seems to have a very regressive tax structure where food is taxed but most income is not taxed. Perhaps TN legislators should be looking for ways to increase taxation in a progressive way to pay for infrastructure and to provide more services for the poor.
Folks currently owning and living in a home love for transplants to come in and drive up housing prices and thus enhance their equity. At least most folks I know appreciate the benefit of. In fact we are hoping to get more moving into our area and drive price acceleration up.

Individual school administrators love a more affluent population as it enhances fund raising and parental support historically is higher as income served goes up. Central administration and government appreciate the increased revenue but have the challenge of build schools to house new students. That's why for many getting us retirees is a government sweet spot.

Also increases small business and shopping demands which brings in more commercial enterprise. Yes it may create lower income service jobs but it is creating jobs and if not here than elsewhere is their usual thinking. Many rural areas of NC would love a new McDonalds to open and provide more minimum wage jobs which are better than no jobs. Enough demand for a Walmart? Yahooo to some! There are times travelling when I think having a Chic-Fil-A open up is a sign that a community has reached some sort of level.

I am finding that areas with poverty are not on the list of areas where developers want to build with retirees and working transplants in mind. This creates even more dislocation. The economic comparisons between High Point NC and Raleigh/Wake County today compared to 30 years ago has to be significant.

10-26-2016, 01:20 PM
 451 posts, read 178,765 times Reputation: 428
My wife and I are both retired teachers. We have combined pensions of \$12,500/month. This is higher than an average teacher's pension in our state but a few considerations. We both have MAsters degrees and were both dep't heads which boosted our pensions. Also, we both taught for close to 40 years before retiring. Many teachers retire early thus reducing their pension. Our pensions also have mandatory COLA's every year.

We earned every penny of our pension and we are enjoying our retirement to the max thanks to our generous pensions.

10-26-2016, 02:57 PM
 Location: Tennessee 23,633 posts, read 17,606,575 times Reputation: 27701
Quote:
 Originally Posted by cruisetheworld My wife and I are both retired teachers. We have combined pensions of \$12,500/month. This is higher than an average teacher's pension in our state but a few considerations. We both have MAsters degrees and were both dep't heads which boosted our pensions. Also, we both taught for close to 40 years before retiring. Many teachers retire early thus reducing their pension. Our pensions also have mandatory COLA's every year. We earned every penny of our pension and we are enjoying our retirement to the max thanks to our generous pensions.

10-26-2016, 05:57 PM
 Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand 22,644 posts, read 40,010,157 times Reputation: 23801
Quote:
 Originally Posted by cruisetheworld My wife and I are both retired teachers. We have combined pensions of \$12,500/month. ... ... we are enjoying our retirement to the max thanks to our generous pensions.
Perfect! congratulations, enjoy!

Yet... how MUCH 403(b) was / is required? Millions? (the subject of OP). I just don't see much of a need / reliance on a 403(b). There were / are so many other ways to nest-egg (if needed). but, Who really needs huge reserves / investment earning potential if you have a reasonable pension? I just don't get it... Of course I live very frugally (and happily) on FREE peanut oil (no fuel required since 1976 if I have a good supply of peanut oil) only 34 yrs in the trenches, most on night shift, so it has been very EZ for me! 10+yrs on this phase of retirement (my 3rd, but not my FINAL)

Maybe my 4th, 5th, or 6th retirement will come with a PENSION!

10-26-2016, 06:14 PM
 Location: Albuquerque NM 1,662 posts, read 1,529,045 times Reputation: 3650
People may prefer large reserves over a pension because they want to leave inheritances to their children. Pensions are subject to the regular tax rate whereas taxable investments and Roth IRA earnings are not and there are many people who just hate to pay taxes. And as TuborgP has mentioned, liquidity can have advantages.

That should be some comfort to the taxpayers that at least they are getting back an amount of the larger public sector pensions (e.g., 25-28% in my case).

10-26-2016, 06:34 PM
 Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand 22,644 posts, read 40,010,157 times Reputation: 23801
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ABQ2015 People may prefer large reserves over a pension because they want to leave inheritances to their children. Pensions are subject to the regular tax rate whereas taxable investments and Roth IRA earnings are not ... getting back an amount of the larger public sector pensions (e.g., 25-28% in my case).
ah... different strokes (again). We gave all ours away at age 39 to a family foundation for perpetual gifting, so nothing remaining for kids. (Except to direct the gifting of family foundation)

and... I keep my effective tax rate below 5% due to RE investments (illiquid to the extreme),,, That all goes to charity too, so... no great wealth to distribute. I just hope my kids don't get saddled with the liabilities (family debt) I received from my parents (at age 18, so my kids are well beyond). the Debt slowed me down a bit while making \$2.65 / hr AND supporting my parents.

That little 34 yr episode re-adjusted my priorities a bit.

YPWV
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