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Old 10-31-2016, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Florida Gulf Coast
4,404 posts, read 5,926,580 times
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Dave, did you ever hear a smoker's cough? I had one. In my 30's....smoked a pack and a half a day. I remember the 20-somethings at work making fun of me (that was back when smoking was COMPLETELY not acceptable anymore). Who me, I hadn't even noticed I HAD a cough! I finally quit, cold-turkey, in 1987. My cough eventually cleared up. Now when I hear a smoker's cough, I realize how disgusting it is. Whether or not the person dies, you can't possibly think that smoking is not wreaking havoc inside your body....
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Old 11-01-2016, 02:54 AM
 
3,460 posts, read 2,199,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
But it seems pretty apparent to me that the dangers of smoking are bit overblown.
No, they aren't. Ever been around a child with asthma having an asthma attack because they were exposed to someone smoking? Go talk to a doctor who has worked in ER about people brought in with asthma that are in trouble and need immediate treatment. People can die from asthma. Approximately 250,000 people die prematurely each year from asthma. Smoking around someone with asthma is one of the biggest asthmatic triggers. Smoking has been proven scientifically to be a major health risk. Ever notice any time you want to get life insurance, short term disability insurance, long term disability insurance or fill out any sort of medical history forms when you go to the doctor they ask if you are a smoker? Noticed the insurance rates are much higher for smokers? There is nothing overblown about it, just because someone doesn't take a single puff and die right there, doesn't mean it isn't very harmful to themselves and others around them.
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Old 11-01-2016, 03:56 AM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
10,461 posts, read 5,928,514 times
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This is what I thought would happen, surprised it took this long.

Please pay attention folks, I never said these things don't happen to smokers. You post as if I am defending smoking, that my position is as it can not harm you and that is simply not the case. I have been arguing that smoking does not always in every case lead to these tragedies which is the common belief and it is showing itself in this thread. It certainly can but it's not a done deal for every smoker, not even close.

Nobody will answer my question so I'll rephrase and throw it out again: Has every single smoker you have ever known in your entire life ended up in the condition the NP described? Do they all have that horrible smoker's cough? Every single one?

Didn't think so.

Last edited by DaveinMtAiry; 11-01-2016 at 05:17 AM..
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Old 11-01-2016, 06:45 AM
 
Location: RVA
2,165 posts, read 1,266,382 times
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Well, sorry Dave, but yes, every single hard smoker I have known and know shows very very obvious physical manifestations of smoking related issues. Light smokers 2-4 cigs a day, do not. My father was an intermediate smoker until his late 30s. I clearly remember the day he quit, because we almost died on the Taconic parkway in NY when I was 15. The parkway has winding narrow lanes and we were driving to a job site. My dad started coughing a hacking smokers cough, and I could see the tears streaming down his face and he could not catch his breath with the coughing, and couldn't see clearly. We started swerving all over the road. There were very few turn offs back then, and when he finally was able to stop the van in a relatively safe place he practically fell out of the drivers seat to the ground, and I thought he was having a heart attack, his face was so blue. He simply could not get any air in to cough out because his airway was blocked and when he finally forced up the most disgusting ball of black and bloody mucus crap and heaved it out on the ground, he sat on the ground & finally caught his breath. He stared at that ball for like a minute, then looked at me, and the expression on my face. Then he took his pack of Kents out, smashed them to pieces, and said in his heavy Italian accent "Well, that's the last time I smoke THAT S#%T AGAIN!" And quit cold turkey from about a pack and a half a day. He's 78 now, and still has some reduced lung capacity, but how bad is impossible to tell. It was one of the reasons my parents divorced when she was about 65. He could not take her smoking (&gambling) and she was never willing to stop either one. She was smoking and on oxygen until the day she died in hospice.

Sorry Dave, it is as bad as they say, and I'll say even for the majority of heavy smokers. It is not overblown one bit. The percentage of people that it does not affect is small in my personal experience. You saying it is overblown is like saying that its obvious all drinkers are not alcoholics (true) and they don't all die from cirrhosis. Also true. Its still a poison, and has negative effects, but the effects are level dependent and bodily dependent. I'm sure there are many heavy drinkers and smokers that live a long time, but the odds are against them, and their quality of health is definitely worse.

Last edited by Perryinva; 11-01-2016 at 06:55 AM..
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Old 11-01-2016, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
10,461 posts, read 5,928,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryinva View Post
Well, sorry Dave, but yes, every single hard smoker I have known and know shows very very obvious physical manifestations of smoking related issues. Light smokers 2-4 cigs a day, do not. My father was an intermediate smoker until his late 30s. I clearly remember the day he quit, because we almost died on the Taconic parkway in NY when I was 15. The parkway has winding narrow lanes and we were driving to a job site. My dad started coughing a hacking smokers cough, and I could see the tears streaming down his face and he could not catch his breath with the coughing, and couldn't see clearly. We started swerving all over the road. There were very few turn offs back then, and when he finally was able to stop the van in a relatively safe place he practically fell out of the drivers seat to the ground, and I thought he was having a heart attack, his face was so blue. He simply could not get any air in to cough out because his airway was blocked and when he finally forced up the most disgusting ball of black and bloody mucus crap and heaved it out on the ground, he sat on the ground & finally caught his breath. He stared at that ball for like a minute, then looked at me, and the expression on my face. Then he took his pack of Kents out, smashed them to pieces, and said in his heavy Italian accent "Well, that's the last time I smoke THAT S#%T AGAIN!" And quit cold turkey from about a pack and a half a day. He's 78 now, and still has some reduced lung capacity, but how bad is impossible to tell. It was one of the reasons my parents divorced when she was about 65. He could not take her smoking (&gambling) and she was never willing to stop either one. She was smoking and on oxygen until the day she died in hospice.

Sorry Dave, it is as bad as they say, and I'll say even for the majority of heavy smokers. It is not overblown one bit. The percentage of people that it does not affect is small in my personal experience. You saying it is overblown is like saying that its obvious all drinkers are not alcoholics (true) and they don't all die from cirrhosis. Also true. Its still a poison, and has negative effects, but the effects are level dependent and bodily dependent. I'm sure there are many heavy drinkers and smokers that live a long time, but the odds are against them, and their quality of health is definitely worse.
Again you do not need to convince me what smoking CAN lead to. I get it, my mom was a smoker too. But it should be clear that your personal experiences has obviously formed your perception of the dangers of smoking. And by the way that is completely understandable. If virtually everyone you loved suffered this way the natural conclusion is it happens to everyone's loved one. Thankfully for the rest of us this is simply not the case. Again I never said it can't happen, I simply stated that the effects are overstated. You and others strongly imply that if you smoke you will end up like your father and that is simply not true.
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Old 11-01-2016, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,581 posts, read 17,567,761 times
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All Dave seems to be trying to say is that the smokers he knows aren't dying from traditionally smoking related health effects.

An acquaintance of mine from back in Indiana died a month or so ago. He drank regularly and smoked cigarettes - I don't know how much but he did go for frequent smoke breaks at the bar, and was at the same bar almost nightly, so likely a heavy drinker as well. I found out that he died of what was likely a massive heart attack while out fishing - dead in his boat. He was around 50.

Did the smoking cause the heart attack, stroke, or whatever happened? Maybe, maybe not. It could have happened if he lived completely clean.

A 55 year old uncle of mine dropped dead of a massive heart attack while mowing back in 2010. He was a smoker. Did it cause it? I don't know, but it probably raised the odds.

I smoke maybe a cigar or two a month - not enough to even invest in a humidor, cutter, etc. It's partly a social thing for me and a way to relax and unwind on a Friday or Saturday night. It's very much a take it or leave it thing.

I do think society has unfairly demonized smoking compared to drinking. If you go into a cigar lounge, people are going to be able to drive home fine afterward. They aren't going to get belligerent like drunks do.
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Old 11-01-2016, 08:21 AM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,168,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
Again you do not need to convince me what smoking CAN lead to. I get it, my mom was a smoker too. But it should be clear that your personal experiences has obviously formed your perception of the dangers of smoking. And by the way that is completely understandable. If virtually everyone you loved suffered this way the natural conclusion is it happens to everyone's loved one. Thankfully for the rest of us this is simply not the case. Again I never said it can't happen, I simply stated that the effects are overstated. You and others strongly imply that if you smoke you will end up like your father and that is simply not true.


If the smokers at your bar died of
1) multiple different cancers (not just lung - it goes way beyond that, pancreatic, liver, colonic, etc)
2) a heart attack at a younger than usual age (say under 60)
3) emphysema


Then its quite possible they died due to smoking. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say none of them died due to smoking. Were they all shot or something?


The lungs evolved to process air and exhale CO2. They are not very good at dealing with the literally hundreds of chemicals that exist in tobacco smoke. You can assert the effects of smoking are overstated - but based on what? Hundreds of thousands of hours spent on epidemiological studies versus your confirmation biased observations of some fellas you know?
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Old 11-01-2016, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Finally the house is done and we are in Port St. Lucie!
3,488 posts, read 2,074,434 times
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To answer your question, Dave, I was a pack a day smoker for over thirty years and never developed any smokers cough nor signs of being a smoker.

My stepmom, on the other hand, died this last January from emphysema. To the poster that said all that suffer from that ballon up, that wasn't the case for my s'mom.

My father was a smoker and never developed the smokers cough. He died from other complications due to diabetes. He had quit smoking 20 years before he passed.

Dave, what you say is absolute truth. When a person dies, the question on the form is 'Was the person a smoker'. If the answer is yes, the death is then attributed to smoking regardless of family history.

Johnny Carson lived in one of the worst polluted cities in the US, I can't help but feel, that contributed to his illness.

The figure of 480,000 deaths a year has been used for many years. Never changing.

I see old people smoking all the time down here. They must be miracles. I don't know how they survived to be in their 80's and 90's. But you better believe that when they do die, their death will be attributed to their smoking. I can only imagine how old they would've lived to be if not for their filthy, need to be ashamed of, have to hide them from the public, habit.

As smoking rates go down, asthma and obesity rates rise. Almost in direct proportion. The rates of lung cancer in never smokers are also rising. Is it just possible that ....nah. That would be crazy thinking....
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Old 11-01-2016, 08:38 AM
 
4,481 posts, read 4,743,078 times
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Old 11-01-2016, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
10,461 posts, read 5,928,514 times
Reputation: 16156
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
If the smokers at your bar died of
1) multiple different cancers (not just lung - it goes way beyond that, pancreatic, liver, colonic, etc)
2) a heart attack at a younger than usual age (say under 60)
3) emphysema


Then its quite possible they died due to smoking. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say none of them died due to smoking. Were they all shot or something?


The lungs evolved to process air and exhale CO2. They are not very good at dealing with the literally hundreds of chemicals that exist in tobacco smoke. You can assert the effects of smoking are overstated - but based on what? Hundreds of thousands of hours spent on epidemiological studies versus your confirmation biased observations of some fellas you know?


I already gave the breakdown, I can see why you missed my follow up post. 2 died of prostate cancer. Any link to smoking with this type of cancer is simply speculation. Several others were old when I knew them and simply expired at an old age, 1 died in a car wreck at 65, another of liver disease quite possibly from all the drinking. Those are the ones I know of and not a single one can be pointed directly to smoking. If you were honest with me you would acknowledge that you know of many people who lived to be very old who smoked for decades or died of other non-smoking related causes.


I had questioned the studies and I think my point is vaild. Just because a smoker died of a heart attack does NOT mean the smoking caused it. He could have had a family history, lots of non-smokers die of heart disease too. And even if I bought every figure of those studies again that does not mean that every smoker dies or has a shortened life because they smoked which is obviously the common belief. Many people share my opinion, again based on the reps I continue to receive. I'm apparently the only one willing to say it.
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