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Old 11-16-2016, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Chesapeake Bay
6,048 posts, read 3,872,797 times
Reputation: 3502

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
The voucher is not intended to be sufficient over the long term. It is meant to cap govt spending with individuals supplementing basic coverage with their own money
Really? How much of your own money do you think that would be? A $1000 a month for you and your wife? $1200? Plus maybe a $12000 deductible for both of you. And say another $8000 in max out-of-pocket. And that's after vouchers are applied.

Those numbers are not so far off the mark for a couple 70yo in a privatized market based approach.

Is that ok with you? It's something like what Ryan is proposing in replacing Medicare with his version of it.

 
Old 11-16-2016, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
21,539 posts, read 44,018,537 times
Reputation: 15140
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
$100 a month saved for 45 years as a retirement fund is not a reality concept. How many in their 70's now had $100 a month to spare 50 years ago? Starting now how much will $100 a month saved for 45 years even with ROI and compounding be worth in 50 years?
Even assuming an optimistic 8% return, $100/mo. over 45 years, tax-free, yields only $527,453. Assuming somewhat more conservative 5% return in retirement, withdrawals amortized over 30 years, yields about $36,000/yr.

By then pensions will have gone the way of the dodo bird. With a paid-for house, car, it's getting by, but that's all it is. Inflation? Big medical bills? If Medicare is hollowed out or eliminated, well, I guess people move in with their kids or house-share, or sell the house and rent or do a reverse mortgage.

Best our grade and high schools start teaching money management and the power of compound interest.

Clearly, $100/mo. isn't good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
I guess that makes me feel better, but I'm not really sure. Sounds like we should all feel better that we were lied to, simply so he could get elected. So, if Trump was elected on a bunch of false promises that are OK because that is the price one pays to get in office, what exactly is he going to do as President? Does anybody really know?
Even he doesn't know. Depends on which way the wind is blowing. He's a classic Gemini ("The Twins" - i.e., two faces) which I knew by his behavior even before I checked his birthdate to confirm. Fwiw, and laugh if you will, but read these:

June 14 - Birthday Horoscope Personality | Sun Signs

June 14 Zodiac - Full Horoscope Personality

Which explains why he can say one thing and then say he never said it. Foreign leaders will be thrilled.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
If Trump and the Republicans repeal SS, they will be out of power in the rural areas with older than average populations for at least a generation.
Not necessarily, if they're clever about it. Don't do anything to affect anyone within ten-fifteen years of collecting. That particular voter base will have either died off or be the last collecting. And, you young 'uns will think it's great. Some of you will be winners, the majority will be worse off.
 
Old 11-16-2016, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,072 posts, read 13,598,798 times
Reputation: 22130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weichert View Post
Really? How much of your own money do you think that would be? A $1000 a month for you and your wife? $1200? Plus maybe a $12000 deductible for both of you. And say another $8000 in max out-of-pocket. And that's after vouchers are applied.
Those numbers are not so far off the mark for a couple 70yo in a privatized market based approach.
Is that ok with you? It's something like what Ryan is proposing in replacing Medicare with his version of it.
I think you nailed it. Medicare advantage plans cost the gov't about $900-$1200 a month but those rates are only viable as long as they can bill using the medicare fee schedule or below - that will go away as soon as they shift insurance to the private market, at that point seniors will be paying ACA rates with rate adjustments for age and pre-existing conditions. Many seniors will be forced to forgo treatment for chronic conditions and wellness checkups and purchase catastrophic insurance which I am sure will have an annual and lifetime cap. This has been Ryan's wet dream for years, anyone who doubts it should read up on the subject.
 
Old 11-16-2016, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,072 posts, read 13,598,798 times
Reputation: 22130
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
I think this is wise advice to all....the less you rely on gov and the retirement programs it "manages" like SS, the better. Yes, all working people put money into the SS system/should get something back in retirement but the bottom line reality is there's no way I'd rely on that as my major or sole source of income in retirement and plan for the money to arrive in year "X" in retirement. Assuming one gets some money from it in retirement, consider it a bonus. Instead my view is create/provide for your own nest-egg largely throughout your working years and I think one will be far better off. I think one has far more control over their financial path/will have greater success than relying on gov and changes that might/might not result over the years/decades one has no control over. For those who use the excuse that they can't save/invest/figure it out, saving/investing for retirement over the long term is not at all complicated either....I think anyone can figure out how simple it is if they just put some basic effort into it. I've worked with many people who did far more research on what smartphone to buy than give thought to their retirement savings/investing plan.
There are plenty of people in this Country who are trying to put food on the table for their family, it's nice to watch people pat themselves on the back for their own financial success, but it isn't reality based. I have known many people who cross their fingers every day that their car won't break down because if it does they can't afford to fix it and without a car they can't get to work. They can't put X into their retirement because their is no X, and it's not always about bad planning.
 
Old 11-16-2016, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,925,427 times
Reputation: 7701
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
There are plenty of people in this Country who are trying to put food on the table for their family, it's nice to watch people pat themselves on the back for their own financial success, but it isn't reality based. I have known many people who cross their fingers every day that their car won't break down because if it does they can't afford to fix it and without a car they can't get to work. They can't put X into their retirement because their is no X, and it's not always about bad planning.
Read my post carefully.....it didn't "pat myself on the back", which I assume was a swipe at me. That wasn't the point of my post except to suggest a different path. To the contrary, I specifically mentioned that anyone can figure out how to put money away/invest it IF they have the will/drive to do so, make it a priority. That's a compliment. If you're offended by somone like myself expressing there is a different and valid choice for the vast majority of people, what can I say except you are taking things a bit to personally. Some like to use the excuse without bettering themselves via education or training, starting a simple one man business, etc and if that's their choice to remain in a low paying/dead end job and decide to put nothing away for retirement/rely 100% on SS, they made their own bed and more power to them. Where most of us end up in life career/job wise is a choice. In our case, when my wife and I worked several low jobs to make ends meet while going to college and a spell afterwards, got layed off/fired from this/that job and retooled/reeducated ourselves to move forward, we still managed to put a small amount of money away in retirement. It was our goal. And it's not bragging...again, it's simply to state there is a choice out there for people if they want to stop relying on the gov for a major part of their retirement and who in power might do this/that in regards to SS. As for people "crossing their fingers", I've worked with lots of such people who told me they can't afford to put $25 a month away in retirement yet they told me how broke they were all the time while making a decent salary. I've worked with people who made clerk salaries and managed to have no debt, their house paid off early, and had decent retire savings because they lived within their means and had different priorities. So while there are indeed poor people out there, many people who use excuses I've found have different priorities where they spend their money, often spend way beyond their means and rack up the debt. Again, that's their choice of course to perhaps never being able to retire given these priorities and are at the mercy of what gov doesn't/does do in regards to programs like SS.

Choices. Priorities.

Last edited by stevek64; 11-16-2016 at 07:26 PM..
 
Old 11-16-2016, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,072 posts, read 13,598,798 times
Reputation: 22130
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Read my post carefully.....it didn't "pat myself on the back", which I assume was a swipe at me. That wasn't the point of my post except to suggest a different path. To the contrary, I specifically mentioned that anyone can figure out how to put money away/invest it IF they have the will/drive to do so, make it a priority. If you're offended by another choice, what can I say except you are taking things a bit to personally. That's a compliment. Some like to use the excuse without bettering themselves via education or training, starting a simple one man business, etc and if that's their choice to remain in a low paying/dead end job, they made their own bed and more power to them. Where most of us end up in life career/job wise is a choice. In our case, when my wife and I worked several low jobs to make ends meet while going to college and a spell afterwards, yet we still managed to put a small amount of money away in retirement. It was our goal. And it's not bragging...again, it's simply to state their is a choice out there for people. As for people "crossing their fingers", I've worked with lots of such people who told me they can't afford to put $25 a month away in retirement yet they told me how broke they were all the time while making a decent salary. While there are indeed poor people out there, many people who use excuses I've found have different priorities where they spend their money, often spend way beyond their means. Again, that's their choice of course to perhaps never being able to retire given these priorities and are at the mercy of what gov doesn't/does do in regards to programs like SS.
Choices.
$25 a month will not replace Social Security, neither will $100 a month. And I'm not taking a swipe at you, the dialog is common to these kinds of threads, there is an implication that since "I did it therefore anyone can and if you don't it's you who is defective, not the system" I disagree with that. There is a 50 year old woman who lives near me, she has trouble walking and has severe facial deformities yet every day she walks past my house in on her way to go to work at Taco Bell which is about 2 miles from here and she's as proud as can be. I'm sure she could be on some kind of assistance but instead she gets up every day and goes to work. She lives in a nearby apartment complex, she's been there at least 2 years and at that time rent was $700 a month but even if they never raised her rent, what does that leave her on a Taco Bell salary? She is probably lucky if she can save enough to buy herself a TV set. And she's not the only one like that, there are plenty of disabled people who work every day, just as she does, not to mention people who are lack the intellectual ability to ever hold a good paying job, they are probably marginally developmentally disabled, but they trudge off to crappy jobs every single day. I am offended by the implication that those people can somehow save enough money during their working years that it would replace Social Security...I just don't buy into the idea that failure to succeed financially means that you lack ambition or will.
 
Old 11-16-2016, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,925,427 times
Reputation: 7701
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
$25 a month will not replace Social Security, neither will $100 a month. And I'm not taking a swipe at you, the dialog is common to these kinds of threads, there is an implication that since "I did it therefore anyone can and if you don't it's you who is defective, not the system" I disagree with that. There is a 50 year old woman who lives near me, she has trouble walking and has severe facial deformities yet every day she walks past my house in on her way to go to work at Taco Bell which is about 2 miles from here and she's as proud as can be. I'm sure she could be on some kind of assistance but instead she gets up every day and goes to work. She lives in a nearby apartment complex, she's been there at least 2 years and at that time rent was $700 a month but even if they never raised her rent, what does that leave her on a Taco Bell salary? She is probably lucky if she can save enough to buy herself a TV set. And she's not the only one like that, there are plenty of disabled people who work every day, just as she does, not to mention people who are lack the intellectual ability to ever hold a good paying job, they are probably marginally developmentally disabled, but they trudge off to crappy jobs every single day. I am offended by the implication that those people can somehow save enough money during their working years that it would replace Social Security...I just don't buy into the idea that failure to succeed financially means that you lack ambition or will.
2sleepy, you missed a big part of my post if you start your post with my $25 dollar contribution to retirement when one is starting out in life early. The point being is just to start with something and stop making excuses. And you give me the outside example of the woman at taco bell with severe facial deformities/has trouble walking. Disabled people can take assistance if they want and will never starve/be without shelter and if they choose not to, that's their choice

I'm talking about the vast majority of people who are able bodied/capable people, ie, the vast majority of the population.

In any case, it's obvious you have a different outlook/drive level/have frankly more excuses for the vast majority of people being incapable than I do. The vast majority of people I've known/met/worked with I've found lack drive/goals far more than abilities. You appear to think the standard is most people lack abilities based on your examples. Given this, I think we should just say we simply agree to disagree as you are more from a victim perspective and I have much more faith in the vast majority of people as I feel the vast majority of people are capable of much more achievement than you feel they are capable of.
 
Old 11-16-2016, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,072 posts, read 13,598,798 times
Reputation: 22130
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
2sleepy, you missed a big part of my post if you start your post with my $25 dollar contribution to retirement when one is starting out in life early. The point being is just to start with something and stop making excuses. And you give me the outside example of the woman at taco bell with severe facial deformities/has trouble walking. Disabled people can take assistance if they want and will never starve/be without shelter and if they choose not to, that's their choice
I'm talking about the vast majority of people who are able bodied/capable people, ie, the vast majority of the population.
In any case, it's obvious you have a different outlook/drive level/have frankly more excuses for the vast majority of people being incapable than I do. The vast majority of people I've known/met/worked with I've found lack drive/goals far more than abilities. You appear to think the standard is most people lack abilities based on your examples. Given this, I think we should just say we simply agree to disagree as you are more from a victim perspective and I have much more faith in the vast majority of people as I feel the vast majority of people are capable of much more achievement than you feel they are capable of.
First of all, I don't really have any skin in this game, I have retired twice and have two pensions + SS, my husband and I also have a decent investment portfolio and more than adequate savings.

Maybe I got my 'victim mentality' because I went through a rocky time myself when I was a single mom, my husband left the state & quit his job. I never got a penny in child support for our two kids. And even though I worked two jobs there were times when I had to flip a coin to decide which bill I would pay late. I couldn't have saved a dime if my life depended on it. I came out on top but it was a rough couple of years.

I'm not asking for sympathy I'm just trying to explain to you that life is complicated and even good people can fall on hard times, and that is why we have Social Security and medicare, yes it sometimes helps people who have been lazy or made bad choices but I don't care, I don't think any 80 year old should be punished for mistakes they might have made when they were 30.
 
Old 11-16-2016, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
21,539 posts, read 44,018,537 times
Reputation: 15140
The selfish, greedy ideology - not to mention absolutely no understanding or appreciation of the great benefits provided by this program to people who would otherwise be under a bridge or dead - as evidenced by many of the posts on this thread is disgusting, frankly.

It's so easy to say this woman can take disability assistance. Well, SSDI IS disability income funded by SS - which will also be hollowed out if funds are diverted via privatization away from the program. As will the widows/dependent benefits when spouses dies prematurely. That particular benefit has helped several families I know when the main breadwinner has died unexpectedly.

Don't say let the states handle it. Many states refuse and leave their citizens in ignorance and poverty. KY, TN, NC, AL, SC - the red states have high rates of poverty and poor health.

That said, yes, there is a fine line between providing assistance and enabling - and, yes, some are enabled and game the system.

Most are just plain deserving.

Last edited by Ariadne22; 11-16-2016 at 08:53 PM..
 
Old 11-16-2016, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,925,427 times
Reputation: 7701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariadne22 View Post
The selfish, greedy ideology - not to mention absolutely no understanding or appreciation of great the benefits provided by this program to people who would otherwise be under a bridge or dead - as evidenced by many of the posts on this thread is disgusting, frankly.

It's so easy to say this woman can take disability assistance. Well, SSDI IS disability income funded by SS - which will also be hollowed out if funds are diverted via privatization away from the program. As will the widows/dependent benefits when spouses dies prematurely. That particular benefit has helped several families I know when the main breadwinner has died unexpectedly.

Don't say let the states handle it. Many states refuse and leave their citizens in ignorance and poverty. KY, TN, NC, AL, SC - the red states have high rates of poverty and poor health.

That said, yes, there is a fine line between providing assistance and enabling - and, yes, some are enabled and game the system.

Most are just plain deserving.
I also say don't let the states handle it, agree! I also say don't let the feds handle it. It's the peoples money and let them handle/manage it. Why do I say this? Simply because a gov that is bought and sold/self serving in my view can't be trusted with my money, period. For those with disabilities and such, no worries, create a pool of money just for that. And be much more strict in handing out that money:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth.../#7002a4191f54

"How Americans Game the $200 Billion-a-Year 'Disability-Industrial Complex'"


But I cringe at the thought of gov even managing any of my retirement money that might/might not be there decades down the road giving how inept they are at managing anything. Case and point.

Hey, candidates: Social Security is broken

Last edited by stevek64; 11-16-2016 at 08:50 PM..
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