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Old 12-16-2016, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
12,268 posts, read 12,507,549 times
Reputation: 19430

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowsnow View Post
If it's all about religion, they can have a religious marriage ceremony without getting legally married. In other words, married in the eyes of God but not the state/government.
You would never find an ordained minister willing to participate in a sham marriage. He or she would lose their state license, and have a horrible time finding a job.

From a religious standpoint it may not matter. Marriage is the one sacrament a priest cannot perform. They can throw a party, recite their vows, which are the real sacrament, and never involve a religious professional. The priest or minister is only there to register the marriage with the state, and if you don't care about that they can say anything they want.
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Old 12-16-2016, 04:09 PM
 
16,598 posts, read 14,078,554 times
Reputation: 20563
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
My best friend is a 65 year old widow. Her 87 year old mother has been in assisted living for about 2 years. Mom has met a man in the ALF who lives in the unit next door. He is same age, widower. Both are not capable of living alone but not diagnosed with dementia but have early signs. The families of each have POA and handle all the mail, finances, taxes, etc and have for many years.

Old folks want to get married!!

They don't want to live together and are just fine with things how they stand. The rub is each one stands to lose significant income from survivor benefits, Social Security benefits, etc. My friend thinks she would be expected to meet the shortfall and while she is comfortable, she does not want to do that.

She talked to Dad's children and they feel the same way. Each family tried to show the older folks how much money they would lose if they got married but they refuse to or can't understand. Each did say they will not change their wills. So the children got together and hatched this plan.

My friend is a graphic artist and she said she would make up official papers (license and certificate), they would have a "ceremony" and let them think they are married. A family member would be the officiate. Is that so wrong?

Turns out another much younger couple in the facility did have a wedding ceremony in the dining room there and it brought much excitement and joy to everybody in the facility. Everybody thinks this couple is just trying to have the same.

I think it is a pretty good idea. None of the people involved are religious so that is not a problem. I think if it were me (old lady wanting to feel I was attached and cherished by someone) it would be fine.
What would you do if it was you or your parent?
A ceremony with no papers is fine. Forging papers is forging papers.
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Old 12-16-2016, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Central IL
15,243 posts, read 8,532,850 times
Reputation: 35674
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Some very interesting comments here. I have shown them to my friend and we discussed each one. I think the people involved are quite desperate and working without all the facts they need. And the comment about not qualifying for Medicaid made her think she can try one more time to discuss this with her Mom. She had not thought of a commitment ceremony and thinks this might assuage the parties. I hope so. I hate to see my friend so worried. It's hard enough to watch a parent slipping away but to worry about that AND a pending marriage is making her a nervous mess.

My own mother died of dementia when she was 86. One day after a doctor's visit she told me they had decided to get married. I was dumbstruck! I knew it wasn't true but it really concerned me enough to call him and tell him what she said. He told me it is not uncommon for his patients to transfer old feelings of love and belonging to a new person who has entered their life. I told my friend this story and now she thinks this is exactly what has happened with these two elders. She is seeing an elder attorney for advice and the two families will have another meeting. Who knows---maybe the old folks will forget the whole thing!

Thanks to all who commented.
Interesting....that's what a lot of younger people do too in terms of serial monogamy yet no one stops them!

Unless they are declared incompetent I don't think a marriage can be stopped. Of course, they may not be capable of carrying out the needed arrangements without help and if no one helps, oh well. Either that or an honest commitment ceremony but no lying or forgery allowed - highly immoral, unethical, AND illegal.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:41 PM
 
Location: VT; previously MD & NJ
2,205 posts, read 1,347,729 times
Reputation: 6341
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
My best friend is a 65 year old widow. Her 87 year old mother has been in assisted living for about 2 years. Mom has met a man in the ALF who lives in the unit next door. He is same age, widower. Both are not capable of living alone but not diagnosed with dementia but have early signs. The families of each have POA and handle all the mail, finances, taxes, etc and have for many years.

Old folks want to get married!!

They don't want to live together and are just fine with things how they stand.
The rub is each one stands to lose significant income from survivor benefits, Social Security benefits, etc. My friend thinks she would be expected to meet the shortfall and while she is comfortable, she does not want to do that.

...
When I first read this I was confused. Still confused. They don't want to live together after they get married? Or they don't want to live together without being married? Are they religious to the point they would think they are living in sin if they are not married? This is not clear from your post. If not religious, maybe someone just needs to tell them they can live together without marriage and that's ok.

As to some posters comment on the children trying to save their inheritance, it just doesn't sound this way to me. The point as I read it is the elders cannot afford to be married. And that means the children would have to start paying part of the monthly fees. Is that correct?
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
17,053 posts, read 17,361,139 times
Reputation: 41484
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Some very interesting comments here. I have shown them to my friend and we discussed each one. I think the people involved are quite desperate and working without all the facts they need. And the comment about not qualifying for Medicaid made her think she can try one more time to discuss this with her Mom. She had not thought of a commitment ceremony and thinks this might assuage the parties. I hope so. I hate to see my friend so worried. It's hard enough to watch a parent slipping away but to worry about that AND a pending marriage is making her a nervous mess.

My own mother died of dementia when she was 86. One day after a doctor's visit she told me they had decided to get married. I was dumbstruck! I knew it wasn't true but it really concerned me enough to call him and tell him what she said.
He told me it is not uncommon for his patients to transfer old feelings of love and belonging to a new person who has entered their life. I told my friend this story and now she thinks this is exactly what has happened with these two elders. She is seeing an elder attorney for advice and the two families will have another meeting. Who knows---maybe the old folks will forget the whole thing!

Thanks to all who commented.
In addition to people with dementia transferring the "love and affection" that they held for their spouse to someone new, it can also happen that they may actually confuse the new person with their spouse. This confusion may not be continuous but happen enough that the person really "thinks" that they love the new person and can't "live without them" (just like they felt that they couldn't live without their late spouse).

Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
My best friend is a 65 year old widow. Her 87 year old mother has been in assisted living for about 2 years. Mom has met a man in the ALF who lives in the unit next door. He is same age, widower. Both are not capable of living alone but not diagnosed with dementia but have early signs. The families of each have POA and handle all the mail, finances, taxes, etc and have for many years.
IMHO, it does not matter that the elderly parents have not officially been diagnosed with dementia. If they are not capable of living on their own and have not been capable of handling their finances or taxes (or even their mail) for many years they are probably not capable of making a legally binding contract such as getting married.

I am glad that the children are checking with an elder care attorney.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:11 PM
 
91 posts, read 76,087 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
My best friend is a 65 year old widow. Her 87 year old mother has been in assisted living for about 2 years. Mom has met a man in the ALF who lives in the unit next door. He is same age, widower. Both are not capable of living alone but not diagnosed with dementia but have early signs. The families of each have POA and handle all the mail, finances, taxes, etc and have for many years.

Old folks want to get married!!

They don't want to live together and are just fine with things how they stand. The rub is each one stands to lose significant income from survivor benefits, Social Security benefits, etc. My friend thinks she would be expected to meet the shortfall and while she is comfortable, she does not want to do that.

She talked to Dad's children and they feel the same way. Each family tried to show the older folks how much money they would lose if they got married but they refuse to or can't understand. Each did say they will not change their wills. So the children got together and hatched this plan.

My friend is a graphic artist and she said she would make up official papers (license and certificate), they would have a "ceremony" and let them think they are married. A family member would be the officiate. Is that so wrong?

Turns out another much younger couple in the facility did have a wedding ceremony in the dining room there and it brought much excitement and joy to everybody in the facility. Everybody thinks this couple is just trying to have the same.

I think it is a pretty good idea. None of the people involved are religious so that is not a problem. I think if it were me (old lady wanting to feel I was attached and cherished by someone) it would be fine.
What would you do if it was you or your parent?
Yes, it's wrong. It would be supporting a lie, regardless of religion. On the other hand, some people think nothing much of telling or supporting a lie. And it's sad that the web or dream of fabrication and deceit exists because of the incapacity of the players.
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Old 12-16-2016, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,485 posts, read 43,777,962 times
Reputation: 47257
Quote:
Originally Posted by ansible90 View Post
When I first read this I was confused. Still confused. They don't want to live together after they get married? Or they don't want to live together without being married? Are they religious to the point they would think they are living in sin if they are not married? This is not clear from your post. If not religious, maybe someone just needs to tell them they can live together without marriage and that's ok.

As to some posters comment on the children trying to save their inheritance, it just doesn't sound this way to me. The point as I read it is the elders cannot afford to be married. And that means the children would have to start paying part of the monthly fees. Is that correct?
Apparently they do not want to share a room at the ALF. They like their current set ups with individual rooms ("units") next door to each other. They don't want much to change except to get married. My friend thinks her mother just wants a big party and to be the center of attention like the previous bride was. Religion is not a factor for anybody involved so it's not like they think they "have" to be married to be an official couple.

BTW I was pretty tight with the administrator of the ALF where my mother was. She told me (and this was 10 years ago) that a large majority of residents there had some form of dementia...that families wait until they simply cannot assure the safety of their loved ones at home anymore when they finally put them in ALF. It's too expensive just to put them there for convenience.

She also told me I would be surprised how much hanky panky goes on. One guy in particular was a bed hopper and the ladies never complained. I remember a new couple there who held hands in the TV room, at the dining table, everywhere and they were often found in bed together. It became a real problem because it was a safety issue. Those single beds are not made for 2 people "getting busy" and a fall for a senior can mean a broken hip and then it's downhill from there.
His family finally had to move him to a place where men and women had separate wings.
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Old 12-16-2016, 08:43 PM
 
6,465 posts, read 3,073,533 times
Reputation: 5922
I didn't read the whole thread yet, but I would check with a lawyer and/or whatever religious officiant you plan to conduct this ceremony.
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Old 12-17-2016, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,697 posts, read 23,668,169 times
Reputation: 35449
Quote:
She also told me I would be surprised how much hanky panky goes on. One guy in particular was a bed hopper and the ladies never complained. I remember a new couple there who held hands in the TV room, at the dining table, everywhere and they were often found in bed together. It became a real problem because it was a safety issue. Those single beds are not made for 2 people "getting busy" and a fall for a senior can mean a broken hip and then it's downhill from there.
His family finally had to move him to a place where men and women had separate wings.
Why do people think just because someone is old they are dead inside? There is no age limit on "hanky-panky."

Separating two people who find each other in later years is downright cruel. They were "found in bed together?" If they're consenting adults, what's the problem? Safety issue my eye. I don't buy the single bed thing as the sole reason they were broken up. AFL's have larger units in which larger beds can fit. The couple could have taken one of those.

I think their relatives separated them because they didn't like the idea of mom and dad having a sex life.
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Old 12-17-2016, 10:38 AM
 
Location: SoCal
13,235 posts, read 6,335,450 times
Reputation: 9854
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Apparently they do not want to share a room at the ALF. They like their current set ups with individual rooms ("units") next door to each other. They don't want much to change except to get married. My friend thinks her mother just wants a big party and to be the center of attention like the previous bride was. Religion is not a factor for anybody involved so it's not like they think they "have" to be married to be an official couple.

BTW I was pretty tight with the administrator of the ALF where my mother was. She told me (and this was 10 years ago) that a large majority of residents there had some form of dementia...that families wait until they simply cannot assure the safety of their loved ones at home anymore when they finally put them in ALF. It's too expensive just to put them there for convenience.

She also told me I would be surprised how much hanky panky goes on. One guy in particular was a bed hopper and the ladies never complained. I remember a new couple there who held hands in the TV room, at the dining table, everywhere and they were often found in bed together. It became a real problem because it was a safety issue. Those single beds are not made for 2 people "getting busy" and a fall for a senior can mean a broken hip and then it's downhill from there.
His family finally had to move him to a place where men and women had separate wings.
This is not a surprise to me. I remember ex- justice O'Connor's husband was in a relationship with someone, it made the news, he had Alzeimers, if I remover correctly without googling.
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