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Old 01-13-2017, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,642 posts, read 17,615,071 times
Reputation: 27701

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
That is exactly why you have freedom of movement to locate where you want and pay for the level and types of services you want. Your issue isn't with me but with your neighbors and the majorities sense of values etc. Your situation is your situation, however many residents of communities with higher taxes and top school ratings feel the heightened increase in home equity outpaces the increase in property taxes. If not they need to vote otherwise or move.

When I transplanted and got lower taxes on a lower priced home but still large and nice, I didn't complain about the lower level of government services and schools that were a tad not as highly rated as the more expensive county next door. Snow? Ice? They don't touch neighborhoods or anything resembling a secondary road. So schools shut down, business shuts down etc etc. If I don't like it then I need to move. No one forced me into the local priorities, I selected them.
This is what I absolutely do not get.

I've talked to I don't know how many people publicly and private via PM on this board who are from rich and prestigious high tax areas who are looking to transplant to Tennessee. Many are retirees or soon to be retired who are getting soaked in taxes up north, often with five figure property tax bills, state and local level income taxes, high registration fees, lots of miscellaneous taxes, etc. Many of those same people complain about the bad schools, lack of services, whatever, but don't realize we run a government on basically a shoestring down here.

At my income level and with my current vehicle, the difference by my quick "back of the napkin" math between state and county income taxes, property taxes on a $150k house, and vehicle registration fees would be about $300-$350/month between IN and TN, and IN is not that high tax of a state compared to NJ, NY, IL, etc.

If you have a new Tahoe, Suburban, F250, etc., in Indiana, just getting your plates for your shiny new car, which is on top of the sales tax, would likely be $1,000. It's $31 for any vehicle of any age or value in my current county. Even my ex's 2008 Pontiac G6, not a high end car by any means, was about $200 to register last year. Oh, and that's on top of the 3% income tax that Madison County, IN levies, which is itself on top of the 3.4% or so the state of IN takes. Oh, and the roads are in complete shambles. The property tax rate is basically double what you'd pay here.

I can't even imagine what registering a boat or an RV would be like Indiana since it's based on the value of the vehicle. A nice boat would probably be thousands of dollars per year just to keep it legal.

I saw a $500,000 home on Trulia somewhere in the Chicago suburbs a couple months back. It had a $27,000 annual property tax bill. Granted, that varies from burb to burb and most aren't that high, but that is absolutely shocking and would crush all but the wealthiest retirees. The same house in my county would probably have a property tax bill around 10% of that.

However, the jobs are in places like Chicago, Connecticut, etc., and there aren't many good jobs in Tennessee, which is a big part of the reason people remain in these prestigious areas instead of moving somewhere cheaper.
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,642 posts, read 17,615,071 times
Reputation: 27701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryinva View Post
While it is not an answer anyone wants to hear, the obvious observation is that high COL places are a place for high income people to live. Always has been, and always will be that way. Do those $140k teachers live like kings in LI, the LEOs in mansions driving a new BMW every year? I think not. A 20 year $50k homec teacher doesn't exist in the NYC area. They could never live there in near the same lifestyle that a $50k homec teacher could live in, in a much lower COL area. Also, the unions would not allow it. Same thing for LEO, etc, etc. Great work if you can get it, and then plan on retiring somewhere cheaper elsewhere, which a HUGE percentage plan on and do. They stay if they invest well, and have high retirement income, pensions and really want to stay there. Or leave, and live a MUCH higher lifestyle in a lower COL place. This has not changed in oh...forever. Being born somewhere does not give anyone the inalienable right to live in comfort there forever. What hogwash. I grew up in Westchester & Fairfield Counties in NY & CT, and while I will retire comfortably in most parts of the US, I would not, in those counties today.

What has changed is the difference between what is considered a high income and a low income. We said the same thing about well paid union jobs 40 years ago, and some people, by luck, advice, or need, took those jobs and today are glad they did. What I read here is a lot of sour grapes. "No fair!" . I didn't want to be a teacher or a LEO. The teacher or LEO does not SET their salary, just like no one else does, except Congress and CEOs. It is offered, and you either take it, or you don't. Begrudging them an offered salary is plain old jealousy.

It is what it is. Adapt, move or change it. Those are the choices. Everything else is just whining.
The 20 year, $140k teachers may not live like kings, but that salary is essentially buying them future options that some 20 year county teacher, making $45k-$50k or so in flyover country, won't have.

The teacher will receive more in SS if they are eligible with the higher salary. The pensions and day to day benefits are likely far more generous. The equity in their homes, both in absolute dollars and in percentage terms, is likely far greater than most of us here in flyover country. If they save a percentage of their salary privately, the higher earner should be far ahead because they were able to save so much more in raw dollars.

You take the same "teacher template," a person teaching the same subject, with the same training, investing the same way, and same lifestyle choices, and put one on LI and one in rural MO, SC, TN, wherever, and the difference in net worth at retirement is going to be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, at a minimum, based on nothing other than where they resided. Is that "fair?" I'm not the one to judge, but it's the reality of the situation, and the cause of a lot of resentment for people in flyover country, fair or not.

The options are the ability to stay where they worked or relocate. That LI teacher can probably stay where they are or move numerous places. The lower income teacher in flyover country is going to be locked into where they are or equally cheap areas. You see people going from NY to TN in retirement all the time, but how many people in TN can retire in NY?

What really causes tension is when you get that public pensioner couple from "up nawth" coming somewhere like here, and that couple can afford a McMansion in flyover country and vacation in Bora Bora, meanwhile the local public pensioner couple lives in a small house that needs updating and might get to Myrtle Beach every couple of years.
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:09 AM
 
29,801 posts, read 34,894,042 times
Reputation: 11720
^^^^^^^ Bada Bing. Or when they post in this forum and give numbers.

My youngest and wife made the choice to compete in San Fran and then back to Northern Virginia. All in the interest of career and it has paid off
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:21 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
8,576 posts, read 6,157,841 times
Reputation: 8554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryinva View Post
While it is not an answer anyone wants to hear, the obvious observation is that high COL places are a place for high income people to live. Always has been, and always will be that way. Do those $140k teachers live like kings in LI, the LEOs in mansions driving a new BMW every year? I think not. A 20 year $50k homec teacher doesn't exist in the NYC area. They could never live there in near the same lifestyle that a $50k homec teacher could live in, in a much lower COL area. Also, the unions would not allow it. Same thing for LEO, etc, etc. Great work if you can get it, and then plan on retiring somewhere cheaper elsewhere, which a HUGE percentage plan on and do. They stay if they invest well, and have high retirement income, pensions and really want to stay there. Or leave, and live a MUCH higher lifestyle in a lower COL place. This has not changed in oh...forever. Being born somewhere does not give anyone the inalienable right to live in comfort there forever. What hogwash. I grew up in Westchester & Fairfield Counties in NY & CT, and while I will retire comfortably in most parts of the US, I would not, in those counties today.

What has changed is the difference between what is considered a high income and a low income. We said the same thing about well paid union jobs 40 years ago, and some people, by luck, advice, or need, took those jobs and today are glad they did. What I read here is a lot of sour grapes. "No fair!" . I didn't want to be a teacher or a LEO. The teacher or LEO does not SET their salary, just like no one else does, except Congress and CEOs. It is offered, and you either take it, or you don't. Begrudging them an offered salary is plain old jealousy.

It is what it is. Adapt, move or change it. Those are the choices. Everything else is just whining.
This is a very timely and much-needed discussion of a real problem. The OP outlined it and suggested changes are needed, which is very true.

The "whining" in this thread comes form those in denial of the effect of recent economic upheaval on our future economic security, nationally and individually. And the OP is quite correct that this upheaval will affect today's youth disproportionately.

The real "whiners" in this - or any other thread you may name - are those who use the term in attempt to shut down discussion and/or marginalize a different viewpoint.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:45 AM
 
Location: RVA
2,172 posts, read 1,270,926 times
Reputation: 4492
Umm..that is not what whining means, but go ahead and use it like that. In what cosmos is an economy forever equal and fair to all? None that I have EVER read in any history of any country in the world. There will always be haves and have nots. I'm not marginalizing the plight of flyover country. There are millions that had plans for their lives based on the economy of their parents and grandparents and now it is gone. But it is not the fault of those that moved to where the high paying jobs are and made the most of their financial situation. It is the fault of the government officials that they helped elect, who have put the interest of their own cronies and personal wealth ahead of the people that elected them. I do not have an answer for the current problem.

And it is only natural for people that are NOT experiencing that problem to underestimate the severity of it. Just like the ones experiencing it, may not realize the opportunities that exist elsewhere. It is patently impossible for EVERYONE without a job to relocate. There aren't that many jobs. But just like the plight of the thousands and thousands of of family farms forced out of business by big Agri, we elected the people that allowed it to happen. They had to sell and find something else to make a living on. And it is often feast or famine for those that survived. Or look at the oil industry jobs in Texas. High paying, in demand, bonuses to relocate...then laid off the next year when natural gas killed the price of oil.

Nature has little sympathy for creatures that will not adapt to survive. Government economies have about the same amount of sympathy. I agree, it sucks.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:51 AM
 
Location: RVA
2,172 posts, read 1,270,926 times
Reputation: 4492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
The 20 year, $140k teachers may not live like kings, but that salary is essentially buying them future options that some 20 year county teacher, making $45k-$50k or so in flyover country, won't have.

The teacher will receive more in SS if they are eligible with the higher salary. The pensions and day to day benefits are likely far more generous. The equity in their homes, both in absolute dollars and in percentage terms, is likely far greater than most of us here in flyover country. If they save a percentage of their salary privately, the higher earner should be far ahead because they were able to save so much more in raw dollars.

You take the same "teacher template," a person teaching the same subject, with the same training, investing the same way, and same lifestyle choices, and put one on LI and one in rural MO, SC, TN, wherever, and the difference in net worth at retirement is going to be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, at a minimum, based on nothing other than where they resided. Is that "fair?" I'm not the one to judge, but it's the reality of the situation, and the cause of a lot of resentment for people in flyover country, fair or not.

The options are the ability to stay where they worked or relocate. That LI teacher can probably stay where they are or move numerous places. The lower income teacher in flyover country is going to be locked into where they are or equally cheap areas. You see people going from NY to TN in retirement all the time, but how many people in TN can retire in NY?

What really causes tension is when you get that public pensioner couple from "up nawth" coming somewhere like here, and that couple can afford a McMansion in flyover country and vacation in Bora Bora, meanwhile the local public pensioner couple lives in a small house that needs updating and might get to Myrtle Beach every couple of years.
Of course you know I made those exact same points in other threads. What those people have done, whether intentional or not, is make the decision to live a higher stress higher cost way of life NOW, for the hope of a much better retirement with more choices later. And for many it had worked out just that way. Sometimes its pure luck, sometimes it's an intentional sacrifice, but for many it was just where the jobs were. My wife was a teacher in Dade County making good money, but a single mom. She chose a pay cut and easier life with me here. I intentionally chose a midway location, after living in 7 different states across the US. I knew I found a compatible spot for me once I had been here a year. I'm sure there are plenty of other places I would find nust as compatible, but you can't try them all! Life in NYC or Miami is not for me, nor is life in rural Maine or TN. It worked out for me, but its not the right choice for everyone by any stretch.

Last edited by Perryinva; 01-14-2017 at 07:20 AM..
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:39 AM
 
Location: USA
6,226 posts, read 5,369,286 times
Reputation: 10643
The name of the game is to make your money in a big city and perhaps retire to a lower COL area. However, I could not imagine spending most of my life living in a big city with a lot to do, only to retire to a boring rural or small town.
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: SoCal
13,278 posts, read 6,362,704 times
Reputation: 9903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryinva View Post
Umm..that is not what whining means, but go ahead and use it like that. In what cosmos is an economy forever equal and fair to all? None that I have EVER read in any history of any country in the world. There will always be haves and have nots. I'm not marginalizing the plight of flyover country. There are millions that had plans for their lives based on the economy of their parents and grandparents and now it is gone. But it is not the fault of those that moved to where the high paying jobs are and made the most of their financial situation. It is the fault of the government officials that they helped elect, who have put the interest of their own cronies and personal wealth ahead of the people that elected them. I do not have an answer for the current problem.

And it is only natural for people that are NOT experiencing that problem to underestimate the severity of it. Just like the ones experiencing it, may not realize the opportunities that exist elsewhere. It is patently impossible for EVERYONE without a job to relocate. There aren't that many jobs. But just like the plight of the thousands and thousands of of family farms forced out of business by big Agri, we elected the people that allowed it to happen. They had to sell and find something else to make a living on. And it is often feast or famine for those that survived. Or look at the oil industry jobs in Texas. High paying, in demand, bonuses to relocate...then laid off the next year when natural gas killed the price of oil.

Nature has little sympathy for creatures that will not adapt to survive. Government economies have about the same amount of sympathy. I agree, it sucks.
Right exactly. My family move from a place that had high unemployment rate like the inland empire to where we are now because of jobs. It's near a major metropolitan area that used to have unemployment in the 3%.

And that's not just now, look at the history of mankind, people moved to better place to survive. Those who stayed back didn't do so well. CNBC had coined a term "ambitious rift raft". Maybe that's term apply to immigrants or people who move for work.

Last edited by NewbieHere; 01-14-2017 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:53 AM
 
2,296 posts, read 1,564,616 times
Reputation: 2737
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave View Post
I'm on Long Island, NY where we have small school districts as opposed to the county system. Depending on step and additional degrees/certifications, a teacher is in the 90K within 10 years, and 6 figures not much after that.

It is nauseating to think that the 'lead' home ec teacher is earning $148,939. The kids learned to sew a stuffed animal and bake snickerdoodles.
An elementary level band teacher...$145,689 He's 54 and shows no sign of wanting to retire.
The lead teacher in the social studies dept earns...$134,545 He's in his late 40's.

The scary thing is that local residents foolishly vote in the budget "It's for the kids!" year after year. Our taxes are through the roof.

The only people who can afford to remain retired here are the teachers or police. My friend's husband is a detective in the neighboring county where he's earning $209,000 per year. My neighbor is a Sgt in this county earning $156,000 plus benefits. They're in their early 50's, mid 40's respectively. Imagine being a local cop married to a local teacher....
Same in California...and not only do teachers earn that, but most can go into higher paying jobs if they can fog a mirror..school psychologist, administrator, etc...

I don't feel sorry for teachers at all...I have family and friends who are teachers...all retire early...many very well paid....and summers and breaks off.. yada yada...

Paid way more than market rate....it's the family that forms a young person...

We need teachers, but don't cry me a river ....
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,756,785 times
Reputation: 32309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryinva View Post
......................

....................... What I read here is a lot of sour grapes. "No fair!" . I didn't want to be a teacher or a LEO. The teacher or LEO does not SET their salary, just like no one else does, except Congress and CEOs. It is offered, and you either take it, or you don't. Begrudging them an offered salary is plain old jealousy.

............................
That is an excellent answer to the poster who wrote that current retirees who did well (and continue to do well) did so at the expense of others. That statement is just mind-boggling. I don't even remember which poster it was, whether the OP or someone else, and I'm too lazy to look for it right now. I quoted that statement and rebutted it at the time, but your answer is better, I think.
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