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Old 02-23-2017, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,388 posts, read 9,131,891 times
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Life is too short (esp at your age) to put up with this sort of stress. You stated you will do OK financially without this job. Let it go and quit. Being happy is worth it!
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
4,800 posts, read 4,842,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Life is too short (esp at your age) to put up with this sort of stress. You stated you will do OK financially without this job. Let it go and quit. Being happy is worth it!



BINGO!!
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Northern IL
241 posts, read 226,653 times
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I have been in IT for 40+ years running shops for the last 25. Just want to say I have not experienced the rampant age discrimination you describe but sorry you have.

That aside I would walk away if the situation makes you that unhappy. BTW why don't you want to use your savings to supplement your retirement?
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:04 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,280,011 times
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Originally Posted by jack_pine View Post
I have been in IT for 40+ years running shops for the last 25. Just want to say I have not experienced the rampant age discrimination you describe but sorry you have.

That aside I would walk away if the situation makes you that unhappy. BTW why don't you want to use your savings to supplement your retirement?

I think it's different for managers vs. coders. Although I do have a friend who experienced age discrimination as an IT manager, and won a settlement. I have another friend who was a software engineer for his whole life and was fired for being old, at around age 60. Then I know another guy who was a manager and he retired at 65 and never experienced any discrimination. Also have heard of older coders being treated with no respect, in a place I left because of that.

So I really do not know, it is very hard to tell if you are experiencing age discrimination. It probably is true that young programmers have extreme enthusiasm for every new thing. They don't realize that most new things are just fads. They also don't realize that the underlying concepts seldom change, so it's easy for old coders to learn the new things. It's just annoying, when you know you are wasting time learning a temporary fad.

There is also the possibility that I am not good at the work I have done for over 20 years. That's what previous jobs made me feel.

However, these 2 guys are not qualified to judge me. They did love me at first, when I worked on the legacy system. But when I work on the new thing they want me to follow orders and they don't want me to think or have opinions.
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:06 AM
ogg
 
19 posts, read 14,119 times
Reputation: 72
I am in a similar situation with my SW development job (young guys blowing their horns, demanding all the attention, etc.). All the new interesting projects seem to flow to the kids while I get 'pigeon-holed' supporting the older stuff. I don't let it get to me because I recall when I was putting in the long hours, getting all the accolades and nice raises. But I have learned over the years to 'let the job be my boss' meaning that you should focus on doing whatever is necessary to get the job finished, ahead of schedule, and meet their expectations while ignoring ALL the office crap. Managers & co-workers ebb & flow around me and while I always try to be cooperative and pleasant I still remain disconnected. At 63 I'm the oldest here and was absolutely certain that one of the past three layoffs would have swept me away yet I remain. So my advice would be to: focus only the job, keep plugging away, ignore as much of the noise from managers & co-workers as possible.

Good luck!
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:06 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,280,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Life is too short (esp at your age) to put up with this sort of stress. You stated you will do OK financially without this job. Let it go and quit. Being happy is worth it!
I am more ok financially with the job. Also, it's good experience that I could put on my resume when looking for more freelance work. Also, I thought of it as a chance to prove I am good at the work I have done for over 20 years.

However, I also love not working, and I hate this stress.

So it's hard to decide. I think I will leave it up to the manager. The way he communicated with me yesterday, and a couple of other times, made it seem like he hates working with me.
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:19 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,280,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
It's almost as tough to 'train a boss' as it is to find a job you really like.

If possible,
  1. set the emotions aside,
  2. do your job as best you can.
  3. Don't get steam rolled, but don't make a fuss.
  4. Consider a tactful way that you will get the ultimate 'dig' and the boss will grow to understand your value
  5. as a remote worker, there is No way you can compete with someone who has the bosses ear all day, everyday, AND no need for you to try.
  6. Defuse this 'competition thing', you have no need or desire to compete / take-away 'bonehead's role. The company is paying the guy's wages, and they will be the one that suffers. Set it aside.
  7. Clearly differentiate your tasks
  8. Be a NO BS and NO pandering kinda coworker (especially remotely)
My 'millennial' kids have a way different attitude / work ethic / work life / career plan that our generation. They DO NOT take work very serious, and one actually chronicles work drama, and assigns characters and stage names to the 'actors' at work. He is in a very serious and intensive financial management role, but 'work' is just not worth 'dying-on-the-sword'. It is just a tool to earn dough to use to make our lives more enjoyable.

Determine where your time is best spent. If you like your hours / work / results, you can overlook bonehead, and not let him get under your skin. Keep yourself valuable, as your boss likely doesn't enjoy having his 'cry-baby' whimpering around the office all day.

Just do your job and keep it out of emotional level. You have BTDT, and no need to subject yourself to the trivial issues of office drama or politics. Let them roll off you and never stick.

Thank you, this is good advice, but hard to follow. In the past couple of weeks, when I saw things going bad, I decided to go along with anything they said, because I love working at home and being part time (I am actually freelance).

It's true I can't compete with bonehead. And besides the bosses obviously love him, because he seems to know everything.

One important question is, does bonehead really know as much about this new technology as he claims? Maybe his knowledge is only superficial. That's how it seems so far.

For anyone who is or was a coder, this is how I got in trouble yesterday:

We are re-writing an old legacy website with Laravel, a PHP web framework. There are some videos that teach how to get started with Laravel, and bonehead and the manager watched them. The videos are good for giving you general advice, but you are not supposed to follow everything mindlessly, whether it applies to your business situation or not. However that is what they do, and that is what they expect me to do.

And I have been trying hard to go along with what they want, just to keep peace.

Bonehead and the manager seem to be web page designers who taught themselves javascript and css. They don't seem to have any in depth understanding of how software works.

Maybe I'm wrong, but all the evidence I saw so far confirms that.

For example, bonehead's code will have the same thing repeated over and over and over. One of the basic rules of programming is "Don't Repeat Yourself" (DRY). He doesn't even know that.

Probably the most important skill in programming is debugging -- knowing how to figure out the cause of an error. But yesterday the manager showed that he has spent little or no time debugging. He thought my code caused the error, because bonehead said so, and he did not bother to do any simple tests to find out.

I tried to defend myself yesterday, without seeming angry. Maybe that's what you mean by "Don't get steam rolled, but don't make a fuss."

That is awfully hard to do, it's such a fine line between defending yourself and making a fuss.

Maybe I could have just let it go, like other things I had let go before. But it was so obviously damn stupid.

Last edited by Good4Nothin; 02-23-2017 at 10:22 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:33 AM
 
3,934 posts, read 3,257,479 times
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Working always seems to involve equal time spent dealing with difficult people, and difficult aspects of the task itself. My stepson is a software development manager, working in a small company that has been in the midst of some big changes. Personalities clashing, people being fired, and leadership role changes at every level. All that drama along with mass technical difficulties having to do with creating a cloud based enterprise system for their customers. He comes home daily, drained of any excitement and terribly downed over the constant go rounds of his co workers and bosses.

He's in his late forties and doesn't seem to understand the work dynamic to the extent that would allow a better work life. I worked for over forty years, and in that time I met and worked with a ton of jerks, incompetents, egotistical types, and just plain evil people. I had bills to pay and that's the reason I continued, but not always at the same company. Eventually, lacking that need of money from the workforce grind, I left. That was eight years ago. During my work years I became pretty feisty, moving on when people became impossible to deal with, it took a lot of jobs to get through those years, but I did find a great relief in telling various bosses to go to hell.

When I retired, I was asked what I thought was the best thing about retiring, my reply was that I finally reached a point of no longer suffering "the pain of forced association". Beginning in our early school years until we quit working this reality of forced association remains the one negative constant in our lives, and people still have trouble articulating that. The OP wants to make this about the IT field, but it is really about the fact of work having a social component surrounding it, and often enough, an unpleasant one. If one has enough money to live on, it's time to pull back from the work world and live in harmony with one's own principles.
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:37 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,529 posts, read 39,903,732 times
Reputation: 23634
Well... My limited experience in High Tech (since 1973) taught me to not get my dander up (after I got to about age 45) I took severance @ age 49, but still am engaged in PT employ and demanding projects with new systems and software / code.

After I retired... work perspective changed dramatically (I don't HAVE to stick around), BUT... it is VERY hard to get a nice position (as it sounds you have).

Disassociate from the emotion, just deal with WORK and results. And don't worry for a second if Bonehead or the boss are competent. Do your best, apply yourself to the task, if they are not satisfied, REQUIRE the details, then adapt, or pull the plug.

Indicate to the boss you are NOT interested in defending yourself or your work (don't bother to tell him bonehead is an idiot).

Get clear instruction, do the job, check out for the day.

If they don't like you, they hold the cards. POOF go back to retirement / or find a better way to spend your time.

Quality, responsible employees with experience and dependability do not grow on trees (anymore). BUT some companies can afford (and often prefer) idiots (for workers and bosses). Know when to check out (I wouldn't rush it if tolerable).
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:45 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,280,011 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Working always seems to involve equal time spent dealing with difficult people, and difficult aspects of the task itself. My stepson is a software development manager, working in a small company that has been in the midst of some big changes. Personalities clashing, people being fired, and leadership role changes at every level. All that drama along with mass technical difficulties having to do with creating a cloud based enterprise system for their customers. He comes home daily, drained of any excitement and terribly downed over the constant go rounds of his co workers and bosses.

He's in his late forties and doesn't seem to understand the work dynamic to the extent that would allow a better work life. I worked for over forty years, and in that time I met and worked with a ton of jerks, incompetents, egotistical types, and just plain evil people. I had bills to pay and that's the reason I continued, but not always at the same company. Eventually, lacking that need of money from the workforce grind, I left. That was eight years ago. During my work years I became pretty feisty, moving on when people became impossible to deal with, it took a lot of jobs to get through those years, but I did find a great relief in telling various bosses to go to hell.

When I retired, I was asked what I thought was the best thing about retiring, my reply was that I finally reached a point of no longer suffering "the pain of forced association". Beginning in our early school years until we quit working this reality of forced association remains the one negative constant in our lives, and people still have trouble articulating that. The OP wants to make this about the IT field, but it is really about the fact of work having a social component surrounding it, and often enough, an unpleasant one. If one has enough money to live on, it's time to pull back from the work world and live in harmony with one's own principles.

That describes how I feel. I really suffered for money. Not always, but often enough, and have been treated with a complete lack of respect or consideration.

That caused me to lose confidence and wonder if there was something wrong with me. I know people who had long careers at great companies with wonderful bosses. They were not in IT, however.

Yes, I realize it is not just IT, but IT is probably on the list of stressful careers. I went into it because I am introverted and hate conflicts and politics, and I love working alone.

Well, guess what, IT is full of politics and personalities. There is a certain type of IT guy who is extremely proud of his knowledge. Some of them actually know a lot, but some just think they know a lot.

IT requires lots of detailed knowledge. Of course, now days you don't have to memorize it all, you can just look it up. If there is ever a little tiny detail you don't know, IT guys will consider that proof you are an idiot.

One other factor is that I am not only old (64), I am female! That probably makes it even worse. These guys have been teaching their parents and grandparents how to use computers ever since they were born. So to them, I understand computers about as well as their grandmother.
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