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Old 03-07-2017, 08:13 AM
 
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Cholesterol is the general name given to a group of lipids. That's why they call it "total Cholesterol"
HDL and LDL is the largest Cholesterol in that group.
Medical science has for years tried to develop one single number that they could tell the public to key on. that's why there are developed a number of "ratios" like HDL/LDL, LDL/HDL and several more

The LDL (Low density Lipoprotein) is the particle that deposits fats on the artery walls
The HDL (High density Lipoprotein) is the particle that removes those fats from the walls.
Do not look at the actual number saying HDL is higher than the LDL, it doesn't work like that.

"Usually" men run an HDL in high 30's/40's, usually women run 40's/50's
rarely does anyone get a HDL over 100
The HDL lab test started in the 1970's and became the standard cardiac test
The LDL is usually a calculation, the actual lab test didn't start until the 1990's but correlates very well with the calculation that it is not ordered much. Calculation cheaper that lab test.
The LDL calculation = Cholesterol - HDL- (Trig/5) The Trig/5 is actually the VLDL particle

So the easiest way to reduce LDL risk is to reduce Cholesterol, so the starting place is lower

But an actual heart attack isn't usually caused by plaque itself. (Plaque caused by high LDL)
It's inflammation of the artery walls which if high, pops the plaque off the walls, freed plaque clogs a artery, causing a heart attack

A very important test is "cardiac CRP", this measures inflammation and can warn if there is a danger of plaque being popped off the artery wall to cause a blockage

 
Old 03-07-2017, 08:46 AM
 
Location: next up where ever I go
588 posts, read 344,283 times
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Heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes run in my family big time.

My uncle on my mother's side died of a massive heart attack at 54. My uncle on my father's side died of diabetes complications along with my father. So I am SOL as far as my DNA.

I, too, refused statins. My cholesterol has run 250 total for my entire adult life. Never goes up and never goes down. As a rule, I have been a very active person my entire adult life. Did not do a thing for my cholesterol.

My trigs are low high at 200. My doc says they don't begin to be concerned until it hits the 600s.

My doc did not hit me hard on not wanting to take statins. I am already pre-diabetic and have been able to keep it below full blown diabetes for the last 11 years without meds. I wouldn't take statins just because of this!

My doc is happy with my weight but I am not. I clock in at 136 at 5'4". I gained 6 pounds over this winter. I need to start the treadmill again. Only thing that will take the weight off. My metabolism is about the rate of a slug. I need to get down to 129. Anything less than that I have to work out 5 days a week and starve myself.

I have 5 months to go to 62.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 09:44 AM
 
259 posts, read 136,235 times
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I am curious. What proof is there that statins will actually help a person who does not have diagnosed cardio vascular disease? I know they are a small help to those who have had CVD. But, if one does not have it?

According to Numbers Needed to Treat, one out of 104 healthy people will avoid a non-fatal heart attack if treated with statins for give years. 1 in 10 will have muscle problems. 1 in 50 will develop diabetes. No healthy persos's life was actually saved after taking a statin for 5 years.

Check it out here. Make up your own mind.

Statins for Heart Disease Prevention (Without Prior Heart Disease) – TheNNTTheNNT
 
Old 03-07-2017, 09:52 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,280,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rombus View Post
I am curious. What proof is there that statins will actually help a person who does not have diagnosed cardio vascular disease? I know they are a small help to those who have had CVD. But, if one does not have it?

According to Numbers Needed to Treat, one out of 104 healthy people will avoid a non-fatal heart attack if treated with statins for give years. 1 in 10 will have muscle problems. 1 in 50 will develop diabetes. No healthy persos's life was actually saved after taking a statin for 5 years.

Check it out here. Make up your own mind.

Statins for Heart Disease Prevention (Without Prior Heart Disease) – TheNNTTheNNT
Yes, that is what I have read also. It is more likely statins will give you heart disease (via diabetes) than prevent it.

Statins interfere with critical biological functions. Nature is not stupid, things happen for a reason. However, unfortunately, our medical industry doesn't see it that way.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 09:53 AM
 
4,312 posts, read 1,280,011 times
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Yes I know medical doctors have internet access, but they only use it to read the mainstream consensus, which often does not keep up with recent research.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 10:24 AM
 
6,212 posts, read 4,718,283 times
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No physician is perfect or perfectly up to date. I only pick physicians I trust and I research their background, boards and training in advance. When in doubt I go to a specialist and I do the same in picking specialists.


There are those for seem to know everything and mistrust all experts. They are stacking up their anecdotal, internet acquired knowledge against someone with years and years of training. Guess who loses.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Idaho
1,451 posts, read 1,152,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Yes I know medical doctors have internet access, but they only use it to read the mainstream consensus, which often does not keep up with recent research.
My personal experience with the 4 MDs in the family and our medical doctors is completely the opposite of your observations.

All the MDs whom I know are quite up-to-date with RECENT medical research. They attend conferences and seminars at least annually.

Regarding taking statin, I have had quite a few in-depth discussions with my PCP (and of course with the medical doctors in the family).

Both my husband and I have been on 20mg simvastatin for almost 10 years. We started taking them when our cholesterol levels were over 220mg.

Diabetes run in my family. Few years back after reading that statin could lead to diabetes, I discussed it with my doctor about stopping and she said it would be up to me. I stopped for 2 years but my blood sugar levels kept creeping up and the same went with my cholesterol level. At that point, my doctor told me that I was borderline diabetic and wanted to put me on medication. She stated that I was doing everything right regarding diets, exercise and healthy weight level so it was a genetic factor which could only be helped by medication.

I talked to one of my MD brothers, he told me that I should up my exercise level to at least 45 minutes a day with periods of intense activities. I also did tons of reading on diabetic prevention diets. Of course, there were a lot of controversies and opposing camps such as the vegan and paleo (cave man) diets. I found the modified 'plate' diet worked best for me with 1/8 starch (whole grains, brown rice), 1/4 proteins and 5/8 vegetables/fruits.

I resumed taking statins and with the increased activity level/intensity and improved diets, I was able to maintain a mildly pre-diabetic condition for the last several years and with excellent cholesterol levels (without taking any diabetic medications).

Regarding statin side effects, I had a mild arthritic pain on a pinky finger which was broken years ago when I was first taking statin in the form of Lipitor. It went away when I switched to simvastatin. Neither my husband nor I have had any muscle weaknesses or other statin side effect problem. I think I am quite strong for my age (can easily walk 7-10 miles, do up to 25 consecutive push-ups or 12 pull-ups - note that I could only do few pushups and zero pullup before starting weight lifting 17 years ago!).

BTW, I totally agree with jrkliny's post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
Sadly, some people read something on the internet and believe they know more than a physician. It is hopeless to try to tell them otherwise. For those of you who have some interest, there are guidelines that have been agreed upon based on medical research. These have been updated numerous times. Google ATP IV to read the most recent guidelines. You will also quickly see that the HDL ratio is not considered important. It is easy to calculate and is provided by Quest and some other labs, but is not used as a basis for any decision making.
I did not hear about ATP IV studies and guidelines until it pointed out by jrkliny but after reading about it, it seems that all the MDs whom I know are quite-up-to-date in the most current research/guidelines.

P.S. My recent readings confirmed jrkliny post below that ATP IV has been around a while (since 2013?) but with constant updates. The latest that I found was for 2016 and it is consistent with the discussion which I had with my PCP at my last annual in December 2016.

Last edited by BellaDL; 03-07-2017 at 11:00 AM..
 
Old 03-07-2017, 10:54 AM
 
6,212 posts, read 4,718,283 times
Reputation: 12710
There is nothing new about ATP IV. The same knowledge and recommendations have been around for years and years with only minor revisions and changes. Any halfway knowledgeable doc is very familiar with these guidelines and the changes over the years.


The guidelines are based on tons of research including very large studies. Those studies have also looked at the side effects and effectiveness of the statins.


The internet is full of crackpots and crackpot theories. I base my decisions on the consensus of experts.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 11:06 AM
 
2,442 posts, read 2,068,483 times
Reputation: 5690
I too read all the bad things about statins and decided to stop taking them and try the natural approach (Red Yeast Rice) diet and moderate exercise. Cholesterol shot way up and I am now back on statins.


Sometimes you just have to take the meds.
 
Old 03-07-2017, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Idaho
1,451 posts, read 1,152,796 times
Reputation: 5472
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperhobbs View Post
I too read all the bad things about statins and decided to stop taking them and try the natural approach (Red Yeast Rice) diet and moderate exercise. Cholesterol shot way up and I am now back on statins.

Sometimes you just have to take the meds.
My husband had a friend who was an university professor. He was very smart, knowledgeable in many areas and fervently believed only in holistic healing. He advocated red yeast rice diet, natural supplements and exercise only and no statins for years even after a quadruple bypass. It was quite sad when he passed away from a heart attack while chopping down a tree when he was 70 years old.

Yes, sometimes you just have to take the meds.
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