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Old 03-14-2017, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Haiku
4,069 posts, read 2,572,689 times
Reputation: 5996

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
So think about it. For $70 in China you get an MRI. Same machine here - probably billed at over $5K and 1-2K paid.
It's probably a pirated copy of what's here.

That is a great anecdote. One reason it might work is that they have somewhat commoditized medicine - an MRI is an MRI, let the customer choose where to get it. Who in the US shops around for an MRI when the doc orders one? I never do. Prices are hidden from us and obfuscated with all the negotiating that goes on behind your back so it is impossible to price-compare.

I believe in capitalism and under normal circumstances I think free markets should lower prices. But medicine is not really a free market in the US and either it needs to be government controlled or radically shaken up to make it a real free market. I cannot see Congress doing either one of those, unfortunately.
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:47 PM
 
4,194 posts, read 2,489,371 times
Reputation: 1935
Since all helathcare from proposed trumpcare, obamacare and previous were "broke", what does America want. Nothing but complaining. What does America want.
If you say free health care, show me where the money needs to come from. Because, it will be paid for by US citizens, and dont say just tax the rich more, as that is BS.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:04 PM
 
Location: next up where ever I go
588 posts, read 344,665 times
Reputation: 2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve40th View Post
Since all helathcare from proposed trumpcare, obamacare and previous were "broke", what does America want. Nothing but complaining. What does America want.
If you say free health care, show me where the money needs to come from. Because, it will be paid for by US citizens, and dont say just tax the rich more, as that is BS.
Steve,

I am curious, would you happen to be someone that would benefit from the proposed tax deductions and not to say least....do you have a Cadillac Plan? Your children are still on your plan? Life is good?

Or do you live on the border and get your healthcare from Mexico?

And last but not least...you are around the same age as me.

Just wondering.

Love Love
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,437,354 times
Reputation: 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
Single payer. Funded by taxes.
It turns out that single payer isn't the answer either. The article found at the following link is a bit too advanced for most people to fully understand -- it isn't intended for the general population -- but the conclusions are clear: single payer is not the answer.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordp...specification/

Moreover, single payer does nothing to get at the underlying problem: health care costs too damn much for no apparent reason.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,437,354 times
Reputation: 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
...The machine has created the rapid advances in medical services that keeps driving the costs up. like all newer technology it is not affordable by all.
Don't mistake costs for prices. Prices are going up, but not necessarily costs. In some cases, both are coming down.

Take LASIK eye surgery. Both costs and prices have come down in response to competition. Any of us can call any provider and ask "what's your price for LASIK" and get a response -- nowadays, it runs from advertised prices such as $299 to $4,000 based on the individual case, but a national average of about $2,000 is a good estimate.

Compare that to the price of PRK or LASIK or other bladeless eye surgery not covered by insurance a decade ago: it was much more expensive.

Competition has driven quality of LASIK higher and driven the price of LASIK down. Everyone wins -- even the opthamologist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
...Unfortunately when that new technology saves and enhances lives not being able to afford it takes on another life. Thus we are at that point. What is a basic level of medical service that is affordable for society to support and up to the individual to go above on their own?
My initial reaction is medication for pain and suffering, and for assisted suicide, and that's about it.

I understand your question but I think it is misstated. Everyone should be responsible for themselves, period. Those who cannot take care of themselves should get medication for pain and suffering and that's about it. Add in assisted suicide. Nowaday, State Governments are even paying for Sexual Reassignment Surgery and hormone therapy for convicted felons with life sentences or who are on Death Row.

That's nuts.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,437,354 times
Reputation: 15683
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
If you replaced "society" with "for profit shareholder corporations" you'd have a more clear picture of costs.

For example, a recent anecdote from a Swede currently living in China tells of the difference between the two countries health care. As you may know, the Swedes are usually in the top 5 worldwide - yet this guy vastly preferred the Chinese medical system.

Here is his example experience:

"This is what I do in China:
I go directly to the hospital and tell the nurse at the entrance what kind of problem I have. She tell me which specialization I need to see. I go to a counter, pay about 1 USD for a ticket (with number) with the specialized doctor, then go directly to that department and queue. I usually get to see the specialized doctor within 3060 minutes. The doctor will always let me do X-ray, CT scan, or whatever, if they think it will help to diagnose. I pay for that myself, ~70 USD, and I can go queue for that scan directly the very same day. After the scan, I go back to the specialized doctor again (no need to re-queue, just go directly). Doctor will look at the result and give a well informed diagnosis.

So with Swedish healthcare, it takes months to achieve what I can achieve in one day with Chinese healthcare.

And yes, not everyone can afford good healthcare in China, but there are very reasonable health insurance packages to buy there that the vast majority can afford."

So think about it. For $70 in China you get an MRI. Same machine here - probably billed at over $5K and 1-2K paid.
I believe every word of the post regarding the Chinese system. That makes sense. Note there is NO insurance company. Note there is NO "single payer."

Quote:
The real culprit here are the corporations which we have prayed at the altar of. You can't have guys like Romney, Frist, Rick Scott and others making BILLIONS and still have reasonable health care. We in the USA have chosen the former.
[/quote]

Regarding the section I bolded above, it turns out that isn't correct. Profits at health care corporations and health insurance companies have not gone up. It turns out profits are not the driver of our high-cost system.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Haiku
4,069 posts, read 2,572,689 times
Reputation: 5996
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
It turns out that single payer isn't the answer either. The article found at the following link is a bit too advanced for most people to fully understand -- it isn't intended for the general population -- but the conclusions are clear: single payer is not the answer.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordp...specification/

Moreover, single payer does nothing to get at the underlying problem: health care costs too damn much for no apparent reason.
First of all, the work you linked to does not make any "clear" claim that single payer is not the answer. He would need to organize his OECD data by payment types to find correlations and causal relationships, and he didn't. All of those countries have different systems. Heck, even the US is 50% single payer since about half the total cost of healthcare in the US is paid for with Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA.

Single payer will solve the equitable distribution of healthcare, which is the vexing problem facing Congress at the moment, and is the topic of this thread. Under ACA and AHCA, there are segments of America that are getting screwed. Single payer will fix that.

But more than that, single payer will unify the way that people utilize healthcare. People have well developed utility functions that govern how they make choices and those utility functions can be tuned so that people are not over-using or abusing services but are in fact making wise choices. Insurance companies have profit as a motive but a single payer system like Medicare will have lowering total healthcare costs as a motive.

More needs to happen than just a single-payer payment system to bring down costs. But that does not obviate the need for an equitable way to insure everyone so single-payer is a necessary but not sufficient element of system that works. Besides, private insurance companies add about 15% premium on top of all payments they make so by eliminating them we immediately trim 15% off the cost.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:39 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,569 posts, read 39,952,759 times
Reputation: 23699
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
It's probably a pirated copy of what's here.
,,, - an MRI is an MRI, let the customer choose where to get it. Who in the US shops around for an MRI ? ... it is impossible to price-compare.
...medicine is not really a free market in the US and either it needs to be government controlled or radically shaken up to make it a real free market. I cannot see Congress doing either one of those, unfortunately.
actually, MRI has become commoditized in USA (and around the world), and many people 'shop-around'

MRI NOW is a provider in USA and AUST. They were 1/10th the rate of our local hospital.
MRI Provider San Antonio, TX | MRI Scans, Medicare MRI & Discount MRI
https://www.mrinow.com.au/

but... yes, in general Medical Services is NOT a free market in USA (since the Government and legal industry is deeply involved) Neither are 'free market' advocates.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:23 PM
 
Location: East of the Mississippi and South of Bluegrass
4,455 posts, read 3,754,840 times
Reputation: 9602
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
<skip>
My initial reaction is medication for pain and suffering, and for assisted suicide, and that's about it.

I understand your question but I think it is misstated. Everyone should be responsible for themselves, period. Those who cannot take care of themselves should get medication for pain and suffering and that's about it. Add in assisted suicide. Nowaday, State Governments are even paying for Sexual Reassignment Surgery and hormone therapy for convicted felons with life sentences or who are on Death Row.

That's nuts.
Like they say, it's a mad, mad world!

Should State Pay for Convict's Sex Change?

That puts Kosilek squarely in the middle of a debate over just what kind of medical care prisoners are entitled to, especially in an era of strained state budgets.
When Cheryl Kosilek's strangled body was found dumped in the back seat of a car in 1990, focus immediately turned to her husband Robert. Robert Kosilek had fled the state but was arrested in upstate New York and eventually returned to face charges in his wife's murder.

Transgender woman feels 'complete' thanks to Obamacare

Devin Payne had gone years without health insurance -- having little need and not much money to pay for it. Then Payne, who had a wife and four children, realized she could no longer live as a man.

Payne learned in the fall that she might qualify for subsidies through the state's new insurance marketplace, Covered California, because her income fell under the limit of $46,000 a year.

Should State Pay for Prison Inmate's Sex Change? - ABC News

Is There Transgender Health Coverage?

The ACA helps transgender Americans due to its many patient protections such as:
Mandating that insurers must accept preexisting conditions like "gender identity disorder", which was often considered a preexisting condition before the law, or expanding coverage options to low and middle income Americans.

See our take on the anti-discrimination ruling here, to be clear, it stops short of requiring health plans to pay for gender transition, but makes a lot of headway (explained in the article).

Is There Transgender Health Coverage? - Obamacare Facts
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:00 PM
 
29,779 posts, read 34,863,854 times
Reputation: 11705
We might want to remember that health care is a limited resource exceeded by the demand for. So does price become the means of allocating it.

If Medicaid becomes a block grant to states and they have less money per person:

Will they pay for fewer people to get nursing home care or reimburse less per person with the obvious reaction from private facilities.
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