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Old 06-05-2017, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
15,293 posts, read 17,614,001 times
Reputation: 25231

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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
Just so that you know. Vanguard doesn't charge broker fees. Every cent of the 30k we deposited in the account is used in our investment. Both funds I am in are relatively conservative. I know the market has been relatively up over the last 3 months but I have had very decent results. About 3 to 4 times what you make in the credit union.
They just don't call it broker fees. Instead they call it management fees. You still get stroked.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:09 PM
 
Location: SoCal
20,160 posts, read 12,701,021 times
Reputation: 16993
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperhobbs View Post
Originally Posted by mathjak107
sequence of accumulation of capital is a huge factor .

i am a seasoned investor and been through it all but i got to tell you , watching the price of a luxury car evaporate in one trading session is stressful . whether it come back tomorrow or next year or not the numbers can be mind blowing later on in life .
We have just had several months of great returns but somehow you manage to consider some event when you lost money short term. It must be hard living in your skin.



I think you missed the point of the post. It was an opportunity to sneak in a comment about how much money he has.
If you can withhold these type of comments and not post them here, I would appreciate it. I think you often made these type of comments, hence my request, because it adds nothing to the conversation. It doesn't help anybody.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:11 PM
 
Location: SoCal
20,160 posts, read 12,701,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
That is what the my fund managers thought and it cost me a lot of money even though I did not know or agree to that sort of allocation.
International fund didn't do well for years, so I understand.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:23 AM
 
106,182 posts, read 108,140,134 times
Reputation: 79722
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewbieHere View Post
If you can withhold these type of comments and not post them here, I would appreciate it. I think you often made these type of comments, hence my request, because it adds nothing to the conversation. It doesn't help anybody.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperhobbs View Post
Originally Posted by mathjak107


I think you missed the point of the post. It was an opportunity to sneak in a comment about how much money he has.


thanks newbie .

if that is what you think jasper , just put me on ignore instead of your ridiculous remarks all the time .

Last edited by mathjak107; 06-06-2017 at 01:35 AM..
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:26 AM
 
106,182 posts, read 108,140,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
Tough crowd here...

I interpret his comment quite simply to mean, that after a lifetime of assiduous earning/saving/investing, it would take a very long stretch of earnings at one's current salary, to recoup a mere single day's potential losses in the market.

Example: Joe Sixpack retires from a factory assembly-line job, earning $10/hour. That's roughly $20K/year. But Joe has accumulated a portfolio of $500K. After some jarring political event - like Brexit - the market drops 2% in one day. Joe believes that he's immortal, or at least that his family is immortal, so he's 100% in stocks. 2% = $10K = 6 months of Joe's labor. Summary: one bad day in the market, and Joe loses a half-year of his gross annual salary... which might be several years of Joe's after-tax savings.
exactly my point . market action up or down is always going to be balance weighted also the fact is the dollars represent more and more years of savings or income up or down.

great when going up but it can be a pretty nasty feeling when a years salary evaporates and you have no idea when or if in your lifetime it may be back . but it just goes with the territory when you invest in things that run in waves or cycles .

Last edited by mathjak107; 06-06-2017 at 01:56 AM..
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:09 AM
 
106,182 posts, read 108,140,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
Market cycles are run by greed. You can invest a million in stocks and take a $200k profit if they go up 20%. You can also buy on margin and use your megabuck to make $2 mil on the same money and the same market move. It's euphemistically referred to as "leverage," but what it is is gambling. If you guess right, you make $2 mil. If you guess wrong, you have to meet a margin call, which means either throwing good money after bad or taking a bath. At best you can lose your megabuck. At worst you lose all the assets you encumbered to back the margin purchase. Selling short is betting the market will drop by selling shares you don't own. You can cover your back with puts and calls, but it's really expert trader time. You need a direct line and a high speed computer that can buy and sell millions of shares a day. That's how amateur day traders get skinned.

That said, sometimes you can see it coming. The 2007 crash was heralded by rampant speculation, in crude oil, real estate and stocks. I frankly didn't see the banking crisis coming, but when gasoline passed $4 a gallon I bailed to cash. Enron was still fresh in my memory, and if 9/11 hadn't happened I would have taken a real bath in 2001. After living through 1980-1982 I knew real estate was a shaky investment unless you had years to recover.

There is always a trigger event for a crash. Recognizing that trigger event when it happens is the problem.
there is a difference between investing and speculating . long term investing in broad markets and accepting the returns the cycles give you has panned out well for every long term accumulation period .

for the most part when you attempt to beat the markets by not accepting the market cycles by either avoiding them or beating them at their own game , that is speculating .

when you attempt to take long term investments and bet you can win in the short term that is speculating .

all the quick trading i do , and i do a lot both in individual stocks and broader etf's , is speculating but it is only done with my fun money .
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,517 posts, read 7,031,823 times
Reputation: 9275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
They just don't call it broker fees. Instead they call it management fees. You still get stroked.
I thought the same until I opened a Vanguard account. It is quite different then I have seen in the past.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:14 AM
 
106,182 posts, read 108,140,134 times
Reputation: 79722
no one works for free. even a bank charges you to baby sit your money one way or another .
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,517 posts, read 7,031,823 times
Reputation: 9275
I agree no one works for free. But as I was recently schooled about how and where they get paid, I have come to appreciate the lower fees from Vanguard. I didn't actually believe it until I saw it with my own two eyes.

Yes I have not started making withdrawals from the accounts as we are still accumulating in that account but I do not see any amount being taken from my account for "management fees".
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:49 AM
 
106,182 posts, read 108,140,134 times
Reputation: 79722
you won't see it taken if they are only fund fees . they are built in to the nav .

i don't focus as much on fees as long as the fund fees are low and there is performance or better risk vs reward with those slightly higher fees .

i would gladly take a managed bond fund like ftbfx vs an un managed index like bnd any day and have no problem paying slightly higher fees for the better performance with really not much in additional risk .

fidelity contra has been a staple fund for years and i don't have an issue with the fee vs my index funds . with less volatility than the s&p 500 it has had better results over the years .


we all will get somethings right and somethings wrong and it is the cumulative end result that counts on the total portfolio . all it takes is a better buy point , rebalance point or sell point and you can make or break any difference you had in fees whether higher or lower . even a different tax structure can make or break the fee difference . so in the end worry about lowest fees may be like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic if you dropped the ball in other places , which we all will do . we never get all aspects optimized so just watch the end result .

excessive fees should be avoided though .

Last edited by mathjak107; 06-06-2017 at 04:01 AM..
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