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Old 10-06-2017, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
21,468 posts, read 28,335,583 times
Reputation: 9749

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Quote:
Originally Posted by skycaller23 View Post
It's about people not paying "Federal income taxes", not all taxes.

How about including all taxes levied against gross income that go to the federal government as "Federal income taxes" because that is precisely what they are. Then it will become obvious what the percent of taxes paid by the working poor actually IS.

 
Old 10-06-2017, 08:54 AM
 
2,215 posts, read 742,560 times
Reputation: 1376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
How about including all taxes levied against gross income that go to the federal government as "Federal income taxes" because that is precisely what they are. Then it will become obvious what the percent of taxes paid by the working poor actually IS.
I don't make up these definitions. But states do keep their state tax and cities do keep their city tax.
But this 47% refers to people paying Federal Income tax only.
 
Old 10-06-2017, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,215,210 times
Reputation: 6866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weichert View Post
So you are totally happy at the prospect of double taxation?
Please explain the double taxation. Thanks
 
Old 10-06-2017, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,215,210 times
Reputation: 6866
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Yup my friend I know you live in Maryland and my comments were directed with that in mind. Yup and in many cases stupid they are and were. It is the income level that can screw people up. Especially with a pension and SS who borrowed heavily against their rampant increase in home equity. Yes in many cases they dug a hole for themselves but it is still a senior in a hole.
Let's try this again. I'm searching for that tiny bit of real information that supports the suggestion that many seniors who claim the mortgage/property deductions would become impoverished if those deductions were removed. Seriously, I tried to find information before I even addressed the deductions in my initial reply but couldn't find it. Oh, I could find the average property taxes in each state and I could find the percentage of all taxpayers who claimed those deductions. But I could not locate any information that suggests the percentage of or the number of seniors who claimed property related deductions. After locating that info, I'd also like to know the median gross income for those seniors. Without that information, I can't buy into the idea that many seniors are going to lose their homes, declare bankruptcy or be reduced to eating dog food if they lose their mortgage/property tax deductions.

Where IS that relevant data hiding?
 
Old 10-06-2017, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,431,986 times
Reputation: 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveLoaves View Post
This Thread is about the Effects of Trump Tax on Retirees. It's already been shown that the High Earners will fare better than the lower end of the Income spectrum.
Which is as it should be.

It’s all about social acceptance of a tax system, being able to run a decent government with acceptable services, and give-and-take — within reason. Tax the highest contributors too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore (move their money abroad).

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Here goes the story:

*****

Once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. 
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by $20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a 100% saving).
The sixth man now paid $2 instead of $3 (a 33% saving).
The seventh man now paid $5 instead of $7 (a 28% saving).
The eighth man now paid $9 instead of $12 (a 25% saving).
The ninth man now paid $14 instead of $18 (a 22% saving).
And the tenth man now paid $49 instead of $59 (a 16% saving). 
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got $1 out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!" 

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a $1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I only got $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor! It only helps Millionaires and Billionaires!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and forcibly confiscated his $10 of savings, because he was rich and didn't need it.

The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. 
 
Old 10-06-2017, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
1,362 posts, read 765,336 times
Reputation: 2428
OMG, I can't believe somebody actually took the time to type that entire Fairy Tale.

As long as we're sitting around the Campfire telling stories, here's one for you....


The US Governmeint owns a Hotel. A Middle-Class Tourist needs to get a room at this Fancy Hotel. The Hotelier tells him that he has to pay a little extra for the room, just for the privilege of staying there.
As a Government Official, the Hotelier takes the Middle-Class Tourist’s money and then gives a deep Discount to a room for the Upper-Class Guest under the premise that the Hotel Industry needs to keep the Upper-Class coming back -- without their gracious good nature, the entire Hotel Industry would be on the verge of total collapse and such a calamity will affect the Entire Global whatchamacallit.

The Hotelier takes the extra money from the Middle-Class Tourist, does nothing to enhance the Tourist's room , and then votes the Upper-Class Guest a total pass on the Alternative Minimum Tax ACT, as a nice little “bonus” for all his efforts.

The Tourist sleeps in a room with the same problems that plagued it before, and neither the Butcher, the Farmer, The Bartender, nor the Hooker see any benefit from the money the Gubmint took from the Middle-Class Tourist.

The Hotelier then makes a nice Contribution to the PAC of his favorite Political Party.



Is that how you see this scenario ??
 
Old 10-06-2017, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
21,535 posts, read 43,982,964 times
Reputation: 15135
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveLoaves View Post
OMG, I can't believe somebody actually took the time to type that entire Fairy Tale.
Thank you for rebutting that Horse Hockey. I no longer have the energy. Of course, repeat a lie often enough, some fool will believe it - actually way too many fools. Tax rates for the high-income/high net worth in this country have never been lower - and, yet, they want to steal from the Treasury under the disguise of the word "borrow" - to give themselves even more. So sickening.
 
Old 10-06-2017, 04:31 PM
 
29,772 posts, read 34,856,103 times
Reputation: 11681
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
Let's try this again. I'm searching for that tiny bit of real information that supports the suggestion that many seniors who claim the mortgage/property deductions would become impoverished if those deductions were removed. Seriously, I tried to find information before I even addressed the deductions in my initial reply but couldn't find it. Oh, I could find the average property taxes in each state and I could find the percentage of all taxpayers who claimed those deductions. But I could not locate any information that suggests the percentage of or the number of seniors who claimed property related deductions. After locating that info, I'd also like to know the median gross income for those seniors. Without that information, I can't buy into the idea that many seniors are going to lose their homes, declare bankruptcy or be reduced to eating dog food if they lose their mortgage/property tax deductions.

Where IS that relevant data hiding?
Quote:
Food for thought. There are many ordinary shlocks paying high property taxes in high property tax states. Many are older who purchased their homes 30-50 years ago and saw amazing increases in the assessed value of their homes. Many are elderly with property taxes and medical cost eating them alive and moving them toward bankruptcy if not already there. They itemize and now?
This is original quote from my post 143. Nothing about dog food and again applicable to areas with high property taxes and major home equity increases over a long period of time. We have a close friend facing a very changing financial situation with the passing of their spouse.

As MathJak has often noted death of a spouse in retirement changes your standard deduction and depending on their contribution to the household income it can be a real hit. Bills get paid late and if their are medical expenses from the death of the spouse etc.

We constantly see articles about retirees/seniors having college loan debt etc.

At any rate it either does or doesn't and for those it does it is their reality and some opt to move to lower tax states.

Last edited by TuborgP; 10-06-2017 at 04:39 PM..
 
Old 10-07-2017, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
21,468 posts, read 28,335,583 times
Reputation: 9749
To the issue of Itemized deductions for seniors. We are seniors and and I cannot conceive of going over the generous Standard Deduction of $15,100.
Taxes in our Mitchell-Lama are extremely low and partially rebatable.
By the time a couple reach 65, one might expect mortgages and shool debt to be paid off.
But even with a free standing home, $15 grand is a LOT of property tax.

No, the effect of borrowing trillions (like with an immense unpaid tax cut) is on the inflation that will be triggered that could wipe out many seniors' savings.
 
Old 10-07-2017, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,215,210 times
Reputation: 6866
Itemized Tax Deductions for Individuals: Data Analysis

CRS REPORT
Prepared for Members and Committees of Congress

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43012.pdf

This is one of the the reports that members of Congress will presumably read.
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