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Old 10-09-2017, 09:38 AM
 
3,090 posts, read 1,717,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Sure a minimum citizenship fee of say a minimum of $100 annually. Same for welfare recipients a minimum benefit deduction again a citizenship fee. A possible option to paying would be your first born for military service of six years.

As far as corporations go even if not directly paying taxes the salaries they pay result in federal income tax along with payroll taxes.

That would create a very interesting discussion by some advocates of a particular mindset about how much they want to push for more federal spending.

Just a thought per your request!
How do you propose the govt. go and abduct the poor's first born?

 
Old 10-09-2017, 10:02 AM
 
29,764 posts, read 34,851,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
How do you propose the govt. go and abduct the poor's first born?
Via the draft/selective service. Reinstitute and as before provide deferment for those who come from tax paying families. Sorta like before but instead of having to be very wealthy or influential the number of folks able to escape is expanded to include more Joe Average who in previous drafts would have had to go.

Tax paying=no conscription

Non tax paying= National Service/Draft if not physically able. If not the military than ten years of volunteer services perhaps building roads or monuments/pyramids etc. Some endeavor that is labor intensive and would cost the government a chunk of change.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 10:08 AM
 
29,764 posts, read 34,851,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
So you are suggesting that corporations should not pay tax because OMG they "give" people dividends? In the first place you should look at the distribution of people in this Country who actually own stock and have the potential to receive dividends.


So basically dividends are a transfer of wealth from the rich to the rich and to the very top tier of the middle class.
Yes and perhaps it might encourage more people to save and increase the number of people saving/investing and building wealth. Certainly would help toward the wealth gap and the growing WEALTH inequality. Please note I said wealth not income inequality. Now before you say the poor can't save we both know better. Non essential spending is there in all income categories. Just check out what stores and services are available in low income neighborhoods across the country both urban and rural.

Rumor has it that many of those most visibly poor soliciting on street corners and intersections are using the money on recreational consumption.

In fact how about term limits on section8 housing? How many successive generations are allowed to live in section 8 housing as adults? Perhaps there should after one generation be a draft of the children of that second generation on. That a good idea TY for it.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
1,362 posts, read 765,336 times
Reputation: 2428
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible.
Sporty, or Misty--
Your self-praising preamble did nothing to explain the fallacies in your Fairy Tale, which reads like it was cribbed from a High School Civics Text. Or David Stockman's Memoir.

Last edited by FiveLoaves; 10-09-2017 at 10:11 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 10-09-2017, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,428,989 times
Reputation: 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
If you want to talk about a fair share, let's look at some of the profitable companies that pay zero income tax? There are 27 S&P 500 companies that did just that But some guy working at a warehouse making 30k supporting a wife and two kids should pay their fare share
This popular trope of the extreme left just won't die. It fits the category of "Lies Told Often Enough Become Truth."

Even though the lie is told over and over again, it is still a lie.

Let's be clear: Neither you nor I nor the author of that hit piece that breaks the boundary of journalistic integrity have any idea of what a corporation pays in income tax.

The Federal Corporate Income Tax Return is a trade secret. The It is not public information.

At every Fortune 500 corporation (indeed, every Large Business), there are maybe a dozen people who know how much federal income tax is paid: The VP of Tax, The CFO, The Treasurer, and a few lieutenants. That's it. The CEO doesn't typically know, although she could if she wanted to, and the Board of Directors could know if they wanted to, although they wouldn't have much interest.

At each Fortune 500 Corporation, IRS Auditors are on-site auditing the corporation continuously. Continuously. Eight hours per day, 5 days per week, 52 weeks per year (excluding holidays) the IRS Auditors continuously examine the books and test all positions. The Corporation sets aside private locked office space for the IRS, including conference rooms, war rooms, file rooms, telephones, secure private internet access, offices & cubicles, and infrastructure for the IRS to do its job of continuously auditing the corporation. The project managers & team leaders of the IRS Auditors know how much the company pays in taxes.

WHAT IS PUBLIC, of course, are the GAAP Financial Statements including The Income Statement, the Balance Sheet, Statement of Cash Flows, etc.

There is a line item on the Income Statement that is the "Provision for Income Taxes." That line item is a GAAP line item (GAAP = Generally Accepted Accounting Principles), calculated based GAAP rules.

It has NOTHING to do with the actual income taxes paid by the corporation.

"Provision for Income Taxes" has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL INCOME TAXES PAID BY THE CORPORATION. Nothing to do with it. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Corporations do not pay federal corporate income taxes based on the GAAP calculation of "provision for income taxes" contained in the financial statements.

Corporations pay federal corporate income taxes based on tax law, tax regulations, and tax accounting. While the Financial Statements of public companies are public, there is a separate and parallel set of financial records called the Tax Books. They are NOT public. They are trade secret. Only in that set of books is the explanation of the actual federal income tax obligation for the year.

So let's just kill off this canard that Fortune 500 Corporations pay no federal income tax, because that information is only knowable if the corporation discloses it, and they rarely do so.

Several years ago, Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, testified before the US Senate and asserted to the best of its knowledge Apple paid more in federal income taxes than any corporation in the world. He listed the number (I'm too lazy to google it for you). Later that day & the next, 4 or 5 other corporations issued public press announcements saying "Wait-- we pay more in income tax than did Apple" although none of them stated the number; it was just asserted.

Count the letters in the word "corporation." Please note it is not a 4 letter word.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,428,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Wow.. the "job creators" should be excused from paying income tax because they employ the peons who contribute to the economy through payroll taxes. But the "takers", well they can cough up a $100 annual citizenship tax. And I guess that would include seniors in rest homes whose entire SS check goes toward their care, the unemployed, the homeless and students. And if they don't pay it, what then, do they surrender their citizenship?
Perhaps your thoughts would be better expressed in the Politics & Other Controversies forum.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,428,989 times
Reputation: 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelena View Post
When corporations pay tax it comes from customers, employees, and shareholders. A case can be made that it is not a transparent (or productive) way to raise revenue.
Absolutely true.

Anyone who has ever purchased laundry soap in a grocery store thinks she has paid the sales tax. Wrong.

The grocery store files sales tax forms with The State and pays the sales tax. HOWEVER, all of us who passed Econ 101 know that the consumer bears the burden of that sales tax. Heck, it is listed on the cash register receipt.

The grocery store merely collects & forwards (pays) the sales tax along with paperwork justifying it, but the true burden of the tax falls on the consumer.

Similarly, corporations merely "collect and forward" taxes to the Treasury and various state tax authorities.

Every penny of corporate tax is paid for by customers in the form of higher prices, employees in the form of lower compensation, and shareholders in the form of lower profits.

Total corporate income tax receipts to the US Treasury are about $300 Billion to $350 Billion or so, varying by year.

In addition to that, corporations spend another $300 to $400 Billion on filling out the damn paperwork (the corporation's equivalent of the individual IRS 1040), responding to the IRS audits, and planning its future affairs.

That $300 to $400 Billion on tax planning & compliance doesn't include the money sent to Treasury. It is pure overhead that adds no value to customers or to society.

For example, the VP of Tax at General Electric brought out GE's Federal Income Tax Return to show on a speech at the Tax Executives Institute's national meeting, and said it was about 25,000 pages of paper. Guess how high the stack of paper was.

We would be much better off as a nation if we just eliminated the corporate income tax altogether. Then, of course, we need an alternative source of that $300 Billion in corporate income tax that won't be paid. Fine -- just raise personal income taxes on the affluent like me. Make it as progressive as you like.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 11:22 AM
 
3,090 posts, read 1,717,042 times
Reputation: 3459
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Via the draft/selective service. Reinstitute and as before provide deferment for those who come from tax paying families. Sorta like before but instead of having to be very wealthy or influential the number of folks able to escape is expanded to include more Joe Average who in previous drafts would have had to go.

Tax paying=no conscription

Non tax paying= National Service/Draft if not physically able. If not the military than ten years of volunteer services perhaps building roads or monuments/pyramids etc. Some endeavor that is labor intensive and would cost the government a chunk of change.
Sounds like what the British did to their poor - charged them with theft and shipped them off to Australian prisons. Maybe you wish US had an island somewhere like that.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 11:24 AM
 
3,090 posts, read 1,717,042 times
Reputation: 3459
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Yes and perhaps it might encourage more people to save and increase the number of people saving/investing and building wealth. Certainly would help toward the wealth gap and the growing WEALTH inequality. Please note I said wealth not income inequality. Now before you say the poor can't save we both know better. Non essential spending is there in all income categories. Just check out what stores and services are available in low income neighborhoods across the country both urban and rural.

Rumor has it that many of those most visibly poor soliciting on street corners and intersections are using the money on recreational consumption.

In fact how about term limits on section8 housing? How many successive generations are allowed to live in section 8 housing as adults? Perhaps there should after one generation be a draft of the children of that second generation on. That a good idea TY for it.
Many slum lords love their section. We know one of them who bragged about how great that is having a guaranteed got. pay out for his tenements.
 
Old 10-09-2017, 11:34 AM
 
29,764 posts, read 34,851,819 times
Reputation: 11675
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Sounds like what the British did to their poor - charged them with theft and shipped them off to Australian prisons. Maybe you wish US had an island somewhere like that.
Aggh yes the Imperial Britain in the 19th century which sprung notions of socialism and the historical Traveler from Altruria which was American written.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Traveler_from_Altruria

Debtor prison v my thought. Certainly my proposal is much more generous and a path to financial escape from poverty than debtor prison. A career in the military with training and education benefits beyond high school. Much better that being trapped in poverty like the rest of the family. In fact for generations the military was seen as a path of opportunity for many. Minorities fought for the opportunity to be drafted and included in the uplifting opportunities and career path offered by serving in combat.

Those my age remember the draft and how folks were required to go unless their family knew someone on the local selective service board or they legitimately qualified for a deferment.

I would think we would have a shared goal don't you? Seeing the youth of poverty escape the low income status of not being tax payers and become full fledged contributors to sharing our debt load at all three government levels. You do want that correct? Perhaps if we motivate their parents more they might become more supportive of their kids schools and seeing them do well in all endeavors and staying out of trouble.

Sort of like the old days I remember.
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