U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Retirement
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 10-16-2017, 12:39 PM
 
30,072 posts, read 47,320,143 times
Reputation: 16023

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/16/whit...form-plan.html





I highlighted the statement that AVERAGE U.S. income would rise $4,000 a year not middle class families. So if the wealthy get a very large tax break that raises the average and if the lower class and lower middle get none the average household income would go up.
That frankly is just spin---
The money coming back to the companies as tax relief can be used in any manner the company so desires
There is NOTHING guaranteed about raising wages or even contributing more to lower cost of benefits like health care costs to workers or additional pension contributions

Claiming that companies reaping tax benefits will spent it on their workers' salaries--ALL workers vs the top eschilon is just pie in the sky to get people to look favorably on a tax plan designed to benefit business and the wealthy top per Americans...

If someone gets a tax refund of $X there is nothing to say the recepient HAS to do something constructive with that refund--like pay down credit card bills or invest in a child's college fund or invest it for retirement---
There is nothing to keep that recepient from buying lottery tickets, new clothes (which go toward consumer spending), or sock it way under the mattress...

THERE ARE NO CONSTRAINTS ON HOW THOSE TAX SAVINGS WILL BE USED--
There is nothing to say companies MUST BRING MONEY BACK FROM OFFSHORE even if there is a lower rate

Making promises about how good these "trickle down" tax benefits will be to the average American is akin to bating a mousetrap with pnut butter or cheese...
You lure the mouse to stick its neck in and SNAP, it's done for...
IF THIS TAX PLAN IS ADOPTED and the GOP keeps the majority nothing can be done to reverse it for the foreseeable future---no matter how badly it actually performs on promises...

 
Old 10-16-2017, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
31,012 posts, read 13,578,167 times
Reputation: 22098
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
That frankly is just spin---
The money coming back to the companies as tax relief can be used in any manner the company so desires
There is NOTHING guaranteed about raising wages or even contributing more to lower cost of benefits like health care costs to workers or additional pension contributions

Claiming that companies reaping tax benefits will spent it on their workers' salaries--ALL workers vs the top eschilon is just pie in the sky to get people to look favorably on a tax plan designed to benefit business and the wealthy top per Americans...

If someone gets a tax refund of $X there is nothing to say the recepient HAS to do something constructive with that refund--like pay down credit card bills or invest in a child's college fund or invest it for retirement---
There is nothing to keep that recepient from buying lottery tickets, new clothes (which go toward consumer spending), or sock it way under the mattress...

THERE ARE NO CONSTRAINTS ON HOW THOSE TAX SAVINGS WILL BE USED--
There is nothing to say companies MUST BRING MONEY BACK FROM OFFSHORE even if there is a lower rate

Making promises about how good these "trickle down" tax benefits will be to the average American is akin to bating a mousetrap with pnut butter or cheese...
You lure the mouse to stick its neck in and SNAP, it's done for...
IF THIS TAX PLAN IS ADOPTED and the GOP keeps the majority nothing can be done to reverse it for the foreseeable future---no matter how badly it actually performs on promises...
Exactly and I'm not sure why anyone would believe the spin. When a business pays less tax they can do what they want with the savings and history has shown that they rarely reinvest it in the business or increase employee pay. Why not? Because you pay your employees more when you can't hire and retain them for what you are currently paying, and you don't expand your business just because you have more money, you expand it when there is increased demand for your goods and services.

The whole theory is as laughable as a homeowner claiming that if their tax burden downs they will pay the guy who mows their lawn more.
 
Old 10-16-2017, 01:29 PM
 
29,774 posts, read 34,860,277 times
Reputation: 11687
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
That frankly is just spin---
The money coming back to the companies as tax relief can be used in any manner the company so desires
There is NOTHING guaranteed about raising wages or even contributing more to lower cost of benefits like health care costs to workers or additional pension contributions

Claiming that companies reaping tax benefits will spent it on their workers' salaries--ALL workers vs the top eschilon is just pie in the sky to get people to look favorably on a tax plan designed to benefit business and the wealthy top per Americans...

If someone gets a tax refund of $X there is nothing to say the recepient HAS to do something constructive with that refund--like pay down credit card bills or invest in a child's college fund or invest it for retirement---
There is nothing to keep that recepient from buying lottery tickets, new clothes (which go toward consumer spending), or sock it way under the mattress...

THERE ARE NO CONSTRAINTS ON HOW THOSE TAX SAVINGS WILL BE USED--
There is nothing to say companies MUST BRING MONEY BACK FROM OFFSHORE even if there is a lower rate

Making promises about how good these "trickle down" tax benefits will be to the average American is akin to bating a mousetrap with pnut butter or cheese...
You lure the mouse to stick its neck in and SNAP, it's done for...
IF THIS TAX PLAN IS ADOPTED and the GOP keeps the majority nothing can be done to reverse it for the foreseeable future---no matter how badly it actually performs on promises...
Ok accepting all you said is true. Other than blowing a potential big hole in the deficit what do you see as being the other economic problems with it passing?
 
Old 10-16-2017, 02:33 PM
 
3,096 posts, read 1,717,786 times
Reputation: 3490
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Ok accepting all you said is true. Other than blowing a potential big hole in the deficit what do you see as being the other economic problems with it passing?
That my tax bill will go up. That the tax cut is coming out of welfare programs. The savings from the tax cut will be invested in cost cutting by automating jobs and unemployment will rise. No jobs will be coming home and unemployment will rise. All of these matters to me.

Why is the GOP unconcerned about raising the debt when they shut down the govt. rather than raise the debt limit just a few years ago? I don't trust hypocrites. And that matters.
 
Old 10-16-2017, 04:16 PM
 
29,774 posts, read 34,860,277 times
Reputation: 11687
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
That my tax bill will go up. That the tax cut is coming out of welfare programs. The savings from the tax cut will be invested in cost cutting by automating jobs and unemployment will rise. No jobs will be coming home and unemployment will rise. All of these matters to me.

Why is the GOP unconcerned about raising the debt when they shut down the govt. rather than raise the debt limit just a few years ago? I don't trust hypocrites. And that matters.
Ok, now other than perhaps the deficit most of your objections are personal or ideological. For the 50% of Americans who own stock much of that will be a plus as corporate profits will rise. There are those who voted for the current administration thinking jobs will come back and they will see their salaries increase who aren't shareholders. Many of them are Democrats and won't be voting for Republican candidates anyway. Challenge for those opposed to he tax proposal is how do you organize and who leads the opposition to it that will convince folks not to support it?

Polls and surveys show economic confidence is up and while salaries may be slowly rising, wealth for many is at a gallop.

The wealth gap is increasing more than the wage gap and that is fine with many on the plus side.
 
Old 10-16-2017, 07:34 PM
 
3,096 posts, read 1,717,786 times
Reputation: 3490
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Ok, now other than perhaps the deficit most of your objections are personal or ideological. For the 50% of Americans who own stock much of that will be a plus as corporate profits will rise. There are those who voted for the current administration thinking jobs will come back and they will see their salaries increase who aren't shareholders. Many of them are Democrats and won't be voting for Republican candidates anyway. Challenge for those opposed to he tax proposal is how do you organize and who leads the opposition to it that will convince folks not to support it?

Polls and surveys show economic confidence is up and while salaries may be slowly rising, wealth for many is at a gallop.

The wealth gap is increasing more than the wage gap and that is fine with many on the plus side.
There are many studies that show corporate tax cuts do not translate into higher salaries for employees. Economic problems bite all of us. If you are immune to it, personally, that does not mean it is not a problem.
 
Old 10-16-2017, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
21,536 posts, read 43,982,964 times
Reputation: 15135
I always file for a tax extension. Did my taxes this weekend. Even with enhanced standard deduction, because I itemize, elimination of personal exemption under the proposed Trump plan results in an increase of taxable income. The increase in taxable income plus the 2% increase from 10-12% would result in a 60% increase in my tax liability. Granted, I do my darnedest to keep taxable income low, so we're not talking a lot of dollars. But, the reality is the tax "cuts" will be paid for by those who can least afford it. Guess this is what they mean by "broadening the base" - sock it to the low income?

There's a reason the poor schmucks who voted for Trump are and will remain poor. Details matter.

Last edited by Ariadne22; 10-16-2017 at 10:04 PM..
 
Old 10-16-2017, 11:22 PM
 
30,072 posts, read 47,320,143 times
Reputation: 16023
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Ok, now other than perhaps the deficit most of your objections are personal or ideological. For the 50% of Americans who own stock much of that will be a plus as corporate profits will rise. There are those who voted for the current administration thinking jobs will come back and they will see their salaries increase who aren't shareholders. Many of them are Democrats and won't be voting for Republican candidates anyway. Challenge for those opposed to he tax proposal is how do you organize and who leads the opposition to it that will convince folks not to support it?

Polls and surveys show economic confidence is up and while salaries may be slowly rising, wealth for many is at a gallop.

The wealth gap is increasing more than the wage gap and that is fine with many on the plus side.
Yes--I thought you would spin it like that---
Polls and surveys were pretty positive before the crash in 08 too...as well as in '29...

So long as those on the "plus side" get theirs then it's all good...is that your justification???
That is what the French aristocracy and the Romanovs thought before the Revolution
That is what the British loyalists thought before they were ostracized and sailed away to Nova Scotia by the skin of their teeth...
But those were "political" events caused by ideological upheavals...

If you don't understand that a country with a stable MIDDLE CLASS is the most stable country of all then not much I can say will make a difference...and you don't stabilize the middle class by putting in place a tax relief bill that preserves great wealth...or allows businesses to enrich themselves even more at the expense of their workers...
That is not capitalism---it is greed...just greed...

And ask yourself this--if that tax plan DOESN'T pass--how optimistic will people be then???
Cause a lot of the market upside is based on what is anticipated to happen...
Not to mention any fiasco on the world political stage...
 
Old 10-17-2017, 03:25 AM
 
29,774 posts, read 34,860,277 times
Reputation: 11687
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
There are many studies that show corporate tax cuts do not translate into higher salaries for employees. Economic problems bite all of us. If you are immune to it, personally, that does not mean it is not a problem.
But it does turn into shareholder profit and gains for the fifty percent who own stocks, pension funds etc. Our financial profile has had a awesome year without much in the way of a COLA on pensions or SS.
Wages aren't the only way to make money and counting on that absent a promotion or bonus etc is probably not a good plan to get ahead. That is a modern day reality and perhaps instead of fighting it we might be better off encouraging others to learn how to increase their wealth one step at a time. Big step or small step it does happen and does work.
 
Old 10-17-2017, 03:28 AM
 
29,774 posts, read 34,860,277 times
Reputation: 11687
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
Yes--I thought you would spin it like that---
Polls and surveys were pretty positive before the crash in 08 too...as well as in '29...

So long as those on the "plus side" get theirs then it's all good...is that your justification???
That is what the French aristocracy and the Romanovs thought before the Revolution
That is what the British loyalists thought before they were ostracized and sailed away to Nova Scotia by the skin of their teeth...
But those were "political" events caused by ideological upheavals...

If you don't understand that a country with a stable MIDDLE CLASS is the most stable country of all then not much I can say will make a difference...and you don't stabilize the middle class by putting in place a tax relief bill that preserves great wealth...or allows businesses to enrich themselves even more at the expense of their workers...
That is not capitalism---it is greed...just greed...

And ask yourself this--if that tax plan DOESN'T pass--how optimistic will people be then???
Cause a lot of the market upside is based on what is anticipated to happen...
Not to mention any fiasco on the world political stage...
I do understand all of that along with understanding the people who disagree with it. I try to avoid operating in the echo chambers that so many seem comfortable with these days. I also realize recent voting patterns, gerrymandering and the quality of candidates and leadership out there. It folks think Tom Perez is the magic elixir then good luck.

Acknowledging something doesn't mean agreeing with it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Retirement
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top