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Totally agree with you Rodentraiser. Excellent post. I saw this transition in the company I worked for during the nine years I was there. Would never have guessed this 180 shift.
Yup. My promised pension was reduced 75% in the early 90's when firm moved to a defined contribution plan and didn't deposit enough to provide the pension expected when I was hired. Some companies grandfathered the older worker. Mine didn't. I think they believed their workers were too dumb to know what they had done. And, they were right about 95% of those affected - they were clueless. I, on the other hand, wasn't clueless and made sure they knew that I knew. Surprised I wasn't fired for all the ruckus I caused.
[quote=rodentraiser;49909017]Let's not forget that those of us in our 50s and 60s are the transitional generation, though. When our parents were working, they tended to work the same job for most of their lifetimes. They had benefits, pensions, and job stability. ...
QUOTE]
To those reading who are not in their 50s/60s, please remember that the above is only true for a certain segment of society- the middle class. Not all of us in our age group come from the middle class, never mind a dysfunctional family of any income/class. All of the above is news to me and I'm 64.
rodentraiser, I'm 69 - is that right on the edge of who you grouped together? - and your post #24 does NOT describe me at all nor does it describe in any way the way I feel nor does it describe my experience and life in the world.
And especially this does NOT describe me:
"Most of us in our 50s and 60s are a lot like those people in the South after the civil war. One world is gone and the one replacing it is completely alien to anything we could have imagined. Some of can adjust to the new world, and some us can't."
I'm surprised you decided to speak for most everyone in their 50's and 60's in such a broad sweep - and at the top you say you're speaking for people in their 50's and 60's -
I believe rodentraiser was really referring to the careers of many in the working class, who were propelled into the middle class in the 20-30 or so years after the end of WWII. The values these people learned were passed onto their children, who are now in their 60s and 70s, and it is some of these people who are affected most by the impermanence of life in 21st-Century America. How will their children turn out?
I never believed in rodentraiser's definition of her supposed mother's generation where some or many women were not expected to work outside of the home and not have careers. She said this is the model that women currently in their 50's and 60's "grew up with". I don't think women currently in their 50's mostly believed in that model, as many of their mothers worked in jobs by then.
I never bought that model for women. I always believed women should develop marketable skills, be able to financially support themselves, and have careers. Rodentraiser wrote of idolizing women without careers and mourning the loss of it.
Many, even most, women currently in their 50's and 60's agree with me about women developing marketable skills, being able to financially support themselves, and having careers, and do not idolize nor mourn the old-fashioned model where women were financially dependent.
And I'm not sure what she means by the following:
"Most of us in our 50s and 60s are a lot like those people in the South after the civil war. One world is gone and the one replacing it is completely alien to anything we could have imagined. Some of can adjust to the new world, and some us can't."
I would like to hear more about what she means by it. It does not apply to me and I don't feel that way at all - but I'm curious as to what she means - if it's more than business changing the way businesses are run - or maybe she is meaning just that. (also why use the terms 'most of us'?)
Last edited by matisse12; 10-24-2017 at 03:32 AM..
[quote=matisse12;49912253]I never believed in rodentraiser's definition of her supposed mother's generation where some or many women were not expected to work outside of the home and not have careers. She said this is the model that women currently in their 50's and 60's "grew up with". I don't think women currently in their 50's mostly believed in that model, as many of their mothers worked in jobs by then.
I never bought that model for women. I always believed women should develop marketable skills, be able to financially support themselves, and have careers. Rodentraiser wrote of idolizing women without careers and mourning the loss of it.
... QUOTE]
Women have always worked when they had to (and had jobs, not careers). Waitressing, laundry, sewing, the infamous teaching/nursing. As a child of the (dysfunctional) working class - father a truck driver, mother waitress when father failed- I have always seen an error in feminism as "Stay-home mother OR career." Most people, men and women, have JOBS, not interesting valuable careers. A profession is great, but it doesn't mean people are having Careers.
As an RN, I have always considered myself to be a licensed technician in a profession. I work by the hour, have little or no autonomy over my work situation, cannot advance without significant more schooling, and do not contribute to my profession outside of the hours and efforts I put in during my shift. I will happily retire from it in January. Anyone with pride expects to do a good job but that doesn't mean you have to like it or see it as a Career.
And yes, all able adults should be able to support themselves, men and women. If they want to be parents, they need to be more able to make a living. It needn't be meaningful or interesting or creative, but it needs to be marketable. I sometimes fear that this is a point that young women have missed- that all adults need to be able to support themselves in one way or another.
I'm 62 and relatively secure in retirement but I wouldn't knock rodentraiser too much. Sounds pretty much like some people I know...and sounds a lot like my parent's retirement situation, which was definitely more secure than mine. All that saved me was getting a job with local government that came with a pension. So now fairly secure in early retirement....SS, plus pension, plus a house with lots of equity in a hot market that i hope to sell and invest profit into a home in a less "hot" area. I do think for a lot of people who were less lucky than me the metaphor of people in the South after the Civil War is perhaps not so far off the mark.
Yes...I know a lot of people who got out of high school and got good factory jobs, sometimes union and made pretty good livings, especially in low COL, rural areas. Then by the time they got into late 40s or 50s those jobs dried up and they got lousy jobs making maybe $10-15/hour if they were lucky. And those jobs didn't last - they had to keep looking after each layoff. They ended up "retiring" early...some ended up on disability because of the rough work they'd done for years. Not pretty...and not what they signed up for. There are no guarantees but...I don't know why it had to end up like that for them when earlier generations did okay.
I work for an investment company and we have had clients pass away within 6 months of retirement. It's very sad considering they were looking forward to enjoying their retirement.
That can certainly happen, but people need to plan for living longer and having some left over, instead of spending it all down and expecting to check out early. The real question is "what if I live and am broke?" instead of "what if I die young and there is money left?"
But planning for living longer does not necessarily mean deferring everything to some nebulous future date either. I've mentioned before that my mother's sister's husband was 55 when he died. Massive heart attack while mowing his lawn. No real prior health problems and it was totally out of the blue.
He was on of these "defer" types. Aunt and him were planning on doing more extensive traveling once the kids were out of the house. Well, that didn't happen, but if he had been alive, he'd have been the type to say "let's wait five more years until I retire," and then there would have been some additional excuse. He was a good guy, but they never really did anything, and they won't get to know.
At some point, you have to come to terms with your risk tolerance, your desire to do stuff now, and expectation of where you might come down with health problems.
I never believed in rodentraiser's definition of her supposed mother's generation where some or many women were not expected to work outside of the home and not have careers. She said this is the model that women currently in their 50's and 60's "grew up with". I don't think women currently in their 50's mostly believed in that model, as many of their mothers worked in jobs by then.
I never bought that model for women. I always believed women should develop marketable skills, be able to financially support themselves, and have careers. Rodentraiser wrote of idolizing women without careers and mourning the loss of it.
Many, even most, women currently in their 50's and 60's agree with me about women developing marketable skills, being able to financially support themselves, and having careers, and do not idolize nor mourn the old-fashioned model where women were financially dependent.
And I'm not sure what she means by the following:
"Most of us in our 50s and 60s are a lot like those people in the South after the civil war. One world is gone and the one replacing it is completely alien to anything we could have imagined. Some of can adjust to the new world, and some us can't."
I would like to hear more about what she means by it. It does not apply to me and I don't feel that way at all - but I'm curious as to what she means - if it's more than business changing the way businesses are run - or maybe she is meaning just that. (also why use the terms 'most of us'?)
I agree, most women in their 50s/60s now are familiar with working and modern lifestyles.
Grandmother is 82. Many of the women of her generation, and those a bit older that I remember, did not drive or work outside the home. She was a Silent - some of the other old neighbors and church members were Greatest Generation. They grew up when the area was almost completely agrarian. I would say my grandmother is on the tail end of the generation who didn't drive or work outside the home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63
Yes...I know a lot of people who got out of high school and got good factory jobs, sometimes union and made pretty good livings, especially in low COL, rural areas. Then by the time they got into late 40s or 50s those jobs dried up and they got lousy jobs making maybe $10-15/hour if they were lucky. And those jobs didn't last - they had to keep looking after each layoff. They ended up "retiring" early...some ended up on disability because of the rough work they'd done for years. Not pretty...and not what they signed up for. There are no guarantees but...I don't know why it had to end up like that for them when earlier generations did okay.
This is absolutely true. This happened to my father. We're from a small town, and he was laid off from his pharmaceutical manufacturing job that paid $20-$25/hr back in 2007. He was only 50 then. He ended up stuck in a call center making roughly $15/hr for nearly ten years, and was having to drive 500 miles roundtrip in commuting a week to get that. Fortunately, he got on at another pharmaceutical plant this July at $27/hr with more overtime than they can shake a stick at, but this is really, really rare to be hired into something like that at 60, and it was only because he knew many of the current staff.
Many of his former coworkers are working retail or whatever they can find. Some dropped out of the labor force entirely once the plant closed, especially if they were 55+. Many of those folks weren't really ready to retire, but that decision was made for them.
As far as answers, I don't know what the solution is. Remaining in a declining rural area isn't it, but by the time someone reaches their 50s, their parents may be old themselves, they may still have kids in school, etc. It gets tougher to leave the longer you're somewhere, it seems.
I agree, most women in their 50s/60s now are familiar with working and modern lifestyles.
Grandmother is 82. Many of the women of her generation, and those a bit older that I remember, did not drive or work outside the home. She was a Silent - some of the other old neighbors and church members were Greatest Generation. They grew up when the area was almost completely agrarian. I would say my grandmother is on the tail end of the generation who didn't drive or work outside the home. Snip
Your grandmother was actually in the beginning of when more women started having options open up to them. Some chose the traditional role for women and others were ready to spread their wings.
My Mom, who is 92, started working part time when I was 13. It was strictly a retail job to make extra money for vacations and a used second car. She was satisfied bringing in a secondary income. Thanks to Dad's union job she had good healthcare and lived a good life until dementia in these later years
My MIL, who is 85, started working full time when my DH was 2. She began work on a comptometer and ended her career as a system analyst. Her income and pension eventually eclipsed my FIL's. Since she was equally involved in the finsncial side of their lives, the transition after my FL died was easier for her.
I knew few women in my age group, early sixties, who did not have a career or a full time job. Most of my friends had Moms that were working by the time I was in high school around 1970. This was suburban middle class with many being one, perhaps two, generations off the farm in the Midwest. By the time I graduated high school, a career requiring college or a job was the main option for women.
Your grandmother was actually in the beginning of when more women started having options open up to them. Some chose the traditional role for women and others were ready to spread their wings.
My Mom, who is 92, started working part time when I was 13. It was strictly a retail job to make extra money for vacations and a used second car. She was satisfied bringing in a secondary income. Thanks to Dad's union job she had good healthcare and lived a good life until dementia in these later years
My MIL, who is 85, started working full time when my DH was 2. She began work on a comptometer and ended her career as a system analyst. Her income and pension eventually eclipsed my FIL's. Since she was equally involved in the finsncial side of their lives, the transition after my FL died was easier for her.
I didn't know many women in my age group, early sixties, who did not have a career or a full time job. Most of my friends had Moms that were working by the time I was in high school around 1970. This was suburban middle class with many being one, perhaps two, generations off the farm in the Midwest. What was called college prep classes were what most kids took in my high school. A career of job was the only option when I graduated, few did not.
She worked in a high school cafeteria. There were numerous women her age and older that I remember never working outside the home.
Keep in mind that we live in Appalachia. The town I live in now was not even founded when any of my great-grandparents were born. I'm sure larger cities, especially in the northeast, probably had more opportunities available for women before we did.
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