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Old 01-08-2018, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,249,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela View Post
Absolutely you can't argue that vaccines haven't saved millions from smallpox and polio etc.
But I refuse to be backed into an either or corner. I don't know why people can't discuss without being either/or. After having taking a bazillion vaccines with increasing skepticsm I still take some. But I also recognize that there are lots of problems. Either or people are just people who have to be right all the time and bully people to accept their superiority.

I suspect the "you must you must you must" crowd have never exerperienced a serious reaction and so, like flawed humans everywhere, think that people who have are crazy. People are always liars or crazy till it happens to you whether its vaccines or sexual assault or whatever.

There are still many problems with vaccines but since the CDC et al really really really want everyone to take all vaccines no question, there seems to be a dearth of good info. Of course that is as much because they don't know either as trying to limit info.
1) They don't want you to be informed and make a decision. They just want you to take it. From the CDC's perspective they don't care (I mean yes they do but in such a way as to change their recommendation) if people were to die from a vaccine as long as more people lived because of the vaccine. Like even if just a few more live, then everyone should take it despite the risks. But you know, I'm more concerned with myself then the those few survivors. Sorry, not a martyr.
And people's situations are different. You live in the middle of nowhere Great Plains are you going to be exposed to xyz? IDK. I know I'm not around that many people and I'm not around children so basically I'm not that exposed to a lot of things that others are.

2) They are always yammering about % rates like it is a known thing - till its not a known thing anymore. Because they don't know what they don't know but they never sound or admit that there is still stuff they don't know.

On average, past flu vaccines have been about 42 percent effective, though that number can range anywhere from 10 to 60 percent in a given year.

Less that 50%. So.....50 50?

Why the Vaccine May Not Help Against the Flu Virus This Year | Time
Ohhhh this is why the flu shot isn't as effective as we've been leading people to believe. Suddenly its not that flu vaccine isn't effective because they picked the wrong strains its because they grow the vaccine in eggs.
Serious credibility problems.

3) A lot of the times this hard and fast data with percentages of effectiveness etc. are based of very small studies. They aren't really that accurate. Not talking the flu shot here but other, vaccines, especially ones that havent been around forever like smallpox.

4) Its not like they do titer tests for a lot of these vaccines. I wish we could get our own titer tests. Many dog people are starting to get titer tests before revaccinating. Titers get low, then.

I want access to the data. How many studies, how big the studies were, what kind of studies, details on reactions and what they think caused those reactions.

I got a flu shot this year. But I feel kind of stupid for doing so. 10%

To bring this back to shingles. Yes, to this I know I'm very susceptible. I want to take a vaccine. One that works with low risk. Is 50% enough vs risk? IDK, not much data but 50 50 doesn't seem like an overwhelming. For the new vaccine, I'd like to see more data. In the end I will probably get it, at some point. But if I have a reaction, I'll be sorry won't I.
There are not a "lot of problems" with the flu vaccine. Severe adverse reactions are on the order of one in a million doses. The disease kills tens of thousands annually in the US. The risk of disease is many orders of magnitude greater than the risk of the vaccine.

Having had a serious reaction to a vaccine is a medical contraindication to taking that vaccine again. Since there are known contraindications to vaccines it is not true that the "CDC et al really really really want everyone to take all vaccines no question."

"1) They don't want you to be informed and make a decision."

Not true. Every vaccine comes with a written description of the risks. Vaccine safety is continuously monitored. There is no conspiracy to hide risks of vaccines. The only way to be uninformed is to refuse to read the vaccine information statement and to not ask questions if you do not understand it. Protecting others is not the main reason for recommending the vaccine. You are ignoring the benefit to the person who takes it in reducing the risk of what may be a severe, even potentially fatal, illness. I am just as self centered as you are. I take the vaccine to protect myself. I am also aware, however, that if I do not get sick because I took the vaccine that I reduce the risk to people I come in contact with. Unless you are a hermit you will be exposed to other people. I guess you could hole up for the winter and never leave your home. Most people are not willing to do so.

"2) They are always yammering about % rates like it is a known thing - till its not a known thing anymore. Because they don't know what they don't know but they never sound or admit that there is still stuff they don't know."

Not true. Effectiveness rates are based on data obtained across the country during each flu season. Refusing a vaccine because it is less than 100% effective is an example of the Nirvana fallacy: if the vaccine is not perfect, then it is worthless. Seat belts are not 100% effective in preventing death in a motor vehicle accident. Do you buckle up, or do you refuse to do so because being belted will not guarantee you will not die? Do you refuse because some people are actually injured by seat belts? How effective must a flu vaccine be before you think it is good enough to take it?

Why is the fact that being grown in eggs promoted the mutation in one of the strains used in this year's vaccine incredible to you? It just suggests you do not understand the science behind it. They did not choose the wrong strain; the virus mutated after vaccine production started.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1030134625.htm

3) A lot of the times this hard and fast data with percentages of effectiveness etc. are based of very small studies. They aren't really that accurate.

No, such studies have to be large enough for the results to be statistically significant. There are calculations done to determine how many cases need to be included to do that.

4) Its not like they do titer tests for a lot of these vaccines. I wish we could get our own titer tests. Many dog people are starting to get titer tests before revaccinating. Titers get low, then.

You could get titers if you want to. For most vaccines adults do not need boosters because historical data tell us that protection wanes slowly, if at all. For flu, getting titers would be enormously expensive and not cost effective.

You keep referring to the current vaccine as being "10%" effective. We do not know yet what the figure will be for the US, but the "10%" number is for only one of the three or four strains in the vaccine, not the vaccine taken as a whole. The overall effectiveness of the vaccine is estimated to be about 30%, since it is more effective than 10% for those other strains.

I want access to the data. How many studies, how big the studies were, what kind of studies, details on reactions and what they think caused those reactions.

This will get you started. Each reference will have more reference.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/publications.htm

To bring this back to shingles. Yes, to this I know I'm very susceptible. I want to take a vaccine. One that works with low risk. Is 50% enough vs risk? IDK, not much data but 50 50 doesn't seem like an overwhelming.

The new vaccine is about 90% effective, dropping to about 85% at three years. We need for time to pass to know whether it drops significantly after that. Is 85% "good enough"? For me, 50% was "good enough" for taking Zostavax and 10% would be "good enough" for the flu vaccine. I will take whatever protection I can get. About 70% of people dying from flu this year were not vaccinated.

I wear a seat belt, too.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professional...tivenessqa.htm

"The protective benefits of influenza vaccination are generally lower during flu seasons where the majority of circulating influenza viruses differ from the influenza viruses used to make the vaccines. Influenza viruses are continuously changing through a natural process known as antigenic drift. However, the degree of antigenic drift and the frequency of drifted viruses in circulation can vary for each of the three or four viruses included in the seasonal flu vaccine. So even when circulating influenza viruses are mildly or moderately drifted in comparison to the vaccine, it is possible that people may still receive some protective benefit from vaccination; and if other circulating influenza viruses are well matched, the vaccine could still provide protective benefits overall."

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,249,973 times
Reputation: 28974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Up until 5 years ago I had never known anyone who had shingles, including all my older relatives. Then my husband got it despite getting the vaccination. Then a couple of years later my 32 year old SIL got it. My daughter's friend got it at 34. A few months ago my older daughter got shingles all over her face and neck at 38 years old. Not SENIORS but young adults. Since the CDC has lowered the age to 50 for vaccination, maybe they need to recommend the vax to everyone regardless of age who has had chicken pox. Hey, at the very least, you can always get another vaccination every 10 years. Why not? Can never have too many vaccinations. Cradle to Grave. The manufacturer would just love that to increase sales.

Pain? Anti-Virals? Both my husband and SIL went to work for a week before going to the doctor. My daughter went immediately but she could not throw on a shirt over her face to go to work. All of these people said it ITCHED.

Jamin, my daughter said she would rather have the "pain" of shingles in comparison to the pain of her failed back surgery. I do agree with you about the stress factor; husband's multiple surgeries, SIL's colicky newborn, friend's wedding, and my daughter's move to new home and new job at same time. Stress, and not getting "natural" chicken pox boosters.
We know. You do not believe shingles is painful. You are wrong.

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.co...1741-7015-8-37

"Pain is the predominant symptom in all phases of HZ disease, being reported by up to 90% of patients. In the acute phase, pain is usually moderate or severe, with patients ranking HZ pain as more intense than post-surgical or labour pains. Up to 20% of patients with HZ develop PHN [postherpetic neuralgia], which is moderate-to-severe chronic pain persisting for months or years after the acute phase."

"Some patients became suicidal as a direct consequence of PHN."
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Old 01-08-2018, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Southern California
23,691 posts, read 8,235,451 times
Reputation: 15456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Up until 5 years ago I had never known anyone who had shingles, including all my older relatives. Then my husband got it despite getting the vaccination. Then a couple of years later my 32 year old SIL got it. My daughter's friend got it at 34. A few months ago my older daughter got shingles all over her face and neck at 38 years old. Not SENIORS but young adults. Since the CDC has lowered the age to 50 for vaccination, maybe they need to recommend the vax to everyone regardless of age who has had chicken pox. Hey, at the very least, you can always get another vaccination every 10 years. Why not? Can never have too many vaccinations. Cradle to Grave. The manufacturer would just love that to increase sales.

Pain? Anti-Virals? Both my husband and SIL went to work for a week before going to the doctor. My daughter went immediately but she could not throw on a shirt over her face to go to work. All of these people said it ITCHED.

Jamin, my daughter said she would rather have the "pain" of shingles in comparison to the pain of her failed back surgery. I do agree with you about the stress factor; husband's multiple surgeries, SIL's colicky newborn, friend's wedding, and my daughter's move to new home and new job at same time. Stress, and not getting "natural" chicken pox boosters.
Jo48

I'm probably 10 yrs at least older than you and not until the friend I mentioned earlier, who was training a puppy in her retirement, like having a new baby at 68, did I ever know a person with shingles. I don't know why all the fear issues and talk about it here at C-D.

My relatives all had their stresses but NOTHING like today's stresses. That's all I can think. They were NOT glued to computers and technology and trying to afford $500K+ homes. Less people less stress too goes with it all. I played bridge with a lot of OLD ladies/men and no shingles around that part of my life either.

Who knows, I just know what I do works for me. My antioxidants. And my calming supplements and I don't mean anti depressants and benzos. Doing NOTHING and Meditation saves one's nervous system too.

It seems so much of this Modern World has pushed people to more shingles.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:15 PM
 
28,237 posts, read 39,884,966 times
Reputation: 36740
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
Shingles is no joke. My father had it several years ago and was miserable - as was everyone around him. To top it off, due to his incompetent VA doctor he was improperly treated for it and developed postherpetic neuralgia. To this day, he will get nerve pain that drops him to his knees.

I'm not much on getting shots, but I'll be getting the shingles vaccination very soon.

As far as we know, there is no history of shingles in my family, but that didn't keep my father from being devastated by it.
I was treated properly and have postherpetic neuralgia, so incorrect treatment isn't the main reason. And I also have pain that will knock me off my feet.

Shingles started in my left eye, spread to my forehead and nose, and over the top of my head. This was a week before we had company coming and had all the downstairs furniture in the garage to have the carpets cleaned. I awoke one day to my wife telling me she needed help moving things into the house. I walked into a garage that had only those items too hard for her to move alone. Grrrrr. I would have helped if she would have asked.

She figured out later that shingles wasn't the only thing I had during all that. When I came out of it (I slept for most of three days) I couldn't do math. I'm the guy who could add a string of numbers (with or or without fractions) faster than someone could do it with a calculator. After that bout I couldn't add two two digit numbers. 19 and 42? Not a clue. Remembering stuff. Well, maybe.

Things are getting back to normal, but it's been almost nine years.

Shingles is nothing to mess with.

And smart phones? I love mine. I hate mine It's my brain. Between Colonotes and Business Calendar it tracks everything I need to know. It seems to require more maintenance than I care to provide. It gets updated and things go wonky. But it's my brain so I shouldn't be surprised. lol!
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Southern California
23,691 posts, read 8,235,451 times
Reputation: 15456
What I got out of this info, as more and more got the vaccine against chicken pox, the younger people are getting shingles.

I didn't get the chicken pox vaccine as a kid, but did get the chicken pox. It was not that terrible as I think way back.

Why are ever-younger adults contracting shingles? - Macleans.ca

((From the above))

South of the border, the vaccine was licensed earlier, in 1995, and though the incidence of chicken pox has decreased dramatically, “reports are beginning to circulate that the frequency of shingles is now higher,” according to Dr. Richard Whitley, president of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. Like McGeer, he believes “we are going to see cases of shingles in younger and younger people because there’s less chicken pox in the population now.”


I hope others will read this and understand it as I "THINK" I do.

I remember when my grandgirl was born, they were going to get her the pox vaccine and she got the chicken pox before they could vaccinate her. So are her chances BETTER to not get shingles in her life.

This is interesting info.

As more and more young people are getting shingles.

So maybe it's better overall to let small children get those childhood diseases afterall.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:37 PM
 
28,237 posts, read 39,884,966 times
Reputation: 36740
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
We know. You do not believe shingles is painful. You are wrong.

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.co...1741-7015-8-37

"Pain is the predominant symptom in all phases of HZ disease, being reported by up to 90% of patients. In the acute phase, pain is usually moderate or severe, with patients ranking HZ pain as more intense than post-surgical or labour pains. Up to 20% of patients with HZ develop PHN [postherpetic neuralgia], which is moderate-to-severe chronic pain persisting for months or years after the acute phase."

"Some patients became suicidal as a direct consequence of PHN."
My shingles was not painful.

Before all the, "See, I was right!" starts up it's because I was given the right medications. Gabapentin eased probably 95% of the pain I would have experienced. In fact I continued to take it for years because of postherpetic neuralgia, and would still be taking it except my body decided to have a bad side effect from it.

Almost nine years in and I still have severe nerve pain. Anyone who decides not to get vaccinated, I wish you well.

One of my favorite comments is someone saying they don't understand all the hullabaloo about shingles. If you don't then why are you posting here?
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,249,973 times
Reputation: 28974
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
What I got out of this info, as more and more got the vaccine against chicken pox, the younger people are getting shingles.

I didn't get the chicken pox vaccine as a kid, but did get the chicken pox. It was not that terrible as I think way back.

Why are ever-younger adults contracting shingles? - Macleans.ca

((From the above))

South of the border, the vaccine was licensed earlier, in 1995, and though the incidence of chicken pox has decreased dramatically, “reports are beginning to circulate that the frequency of shingles is now higher,” according to Dr. Richard Whitley, president of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. Like McGeer, he believes “we are going to see cases of shingles in younger and younger people because there’s less chicken pox in the population now.”


I hope others will read this and understand it as I "THINK" I do.

I remember when my grandgirl was born, they were going to get her the pox vaccine and she got the chicken pox before they could vaccinate her. So are her chances BETTER to not get shingles in her life.

This is interesting info.

As more and more young people are getting shingles.
No one knows why the incidence of shingles is rising. It is increasing in countries that do not routinely vaccinate against chickenpox. It's not the vaccine that is causing it.

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article..._2/S224/847304

"Studies from Canada and the United Kingdom have shown increasing rates of HZ incidence in the absence of a varicella vaccination program. Data suggest that heretofore unidentified risk factors for HZ also are changing over time."

Do we really want to deny the vaccine to children and have them get sick in order for them to act like booster vaccines when there is an unproven increased risk of shingles due to vaccinating against chickenpox?

No, your grandchild is at greater risk to get shingles than she would have been if she had the vaccine. The risk is lower after the vaccine and if it happens it tends to be less severe.

Quote:
So maybe it's better overall to let small children get those childhood diseases afterall.
No. Just no.

How about you tell that to parents of children who have been maimed or killed by vaccine preventable diseases.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:47 PM
 
11,976 posts, read 5,111,061 times
Reputation: 18714
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
What I got out of this info, as more and more got the vaccine against chicken pox, the younger people are getting shingles.

I didn't get the chicken pox vaccine as a kid, but did get the chicken pox. It was not that terrible as I think way back.

Why are ever-younger adults contracting shingles? - Macleans.ca

((From the above))

South of the border, the vaccine was licensed earlier, in 1995, and though the incidence of chicken pox has decreased dramatically, “reports are beginning to circulate that the frequency of shingles is now higher,” according to Dr. Richard Whitley, president of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. Like McGeer, he believes “we are going to see cases of shingles in younger and younger people because there’s less chicken pox in the population now.”


I hope others will read this and understand it as I "THINK" I do.

I remember when my grandgirl was born, they were going to get her the pox vaccine and she got the chicken pox before they could vaccinate her. So are her chances BETTER to not get shingles in her life.

This is interesting info.

As more and more young people are getting shingles.

So maybe it's better overall to let small children get those childhood diseases afterall.
That's a very interesting article and seems to contradict some of what people here are saying.
-if you've had the chicken pox rather than the vaccine, your chances of getting shingles are less. That's why it's becoming more common in younger people
-The lifetime chance of getting shingles is 15% to 20% (in Canada) not one in three
-The new vaccine for shingles is only 50 percent effective, so even if you have the vaccine you still have a 50/50 chance of getting shingles
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:05 PM
 
28,237 posts, read 39,884,966 times
Reputation: 36740
Always, always take advice and numbers from studies with a huge grain of salt when it's from some Internet site that purports to be supported by statistics and information that was probably pulled from some other questionable website that got their information from Billy Bob down the street.
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,249,973 times
Reputation: 28974
Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
That's a very interesting article and seems to contradict some of what people here are saying.
-if you've had the chicken pox rather than the vaccine, your chances of getting shingles are less. That's why it's becoming more common in younger people
-The lifetime chance of getting shingles is 15% to 20% (in Canada) not one in three
-The new vaccine for shingles is only 50 percent effective, so even if you have the vaccine you still have a 50/50 chance of getting shingles
No, the risk of shingles is lower after the vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html

"Although uncommon among children, the rate of herpes zoster in U.S. children has been declining since the routine varicella vaccination program started. Varicella vaccine contains live attenuated VZV, which causes latent infection. The attenuated vaccine virus can reactivate and cause herpes zoster; however, children vaccinated against varicella appear to have a lower risk of herpes zoster than people who were infected with wild-type VZV.[10] The reason for this is that vaccinated children are less likely to become infected with wild-type VZV, and the risk of reactivation of vaccine-strain VZV appears lower compared with reactivation of wild-type VZV.
  • Healthy children and immunocompromised children who have been vaccinated against varicella have lower rates of herpes zoster compared to children who had natural infection with varicella.[11]
  • Data on healthy children show a similar pattern of reduced risk of herpes zoster in those vaccinated against varicella.
  • The number of older adults who have gotten varicella vaccine since it was licensed in 1995 is quite small. There is very little information on the risk of herpes zoster in people who got varicella vaccine as adults."

Half of children who get shingles after the vaccine do so because they have been infected with the wild virus.

https://www.thestar.com/life/health_...is_costly.html

"Available in Canada since 2009, it’s [Ziostavax] recommended by the National Advisory Committee on Immunization for people age 60 and older and approved for those in their 50s. A person’s lifetime risk of developing shingles is about 20 to 30 per cent, and that risk steeply increases as a person ages into their 60s and 70s."

The new vaccine, Shingrix, is about 90% effective one year after vaccination and drops only slightly to 85% after four years. It also is very effective in reducing postherpetic neuralgia.

https://www.healio.com/infectious-di...-over-zostavax
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