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Old 02-03-2018, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,242,738 times
Reputation: 28974

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamillaB View Post
I think a lot of legitimate vaccine reactions are waved away because of this. The doctors think oh, well it just randomly happened and you just happened to have the shot before it happened and it was going to happen anyway. But how can we know that for sure? If you are healthy and have a shot and the next day have a seizure, one might say well, what could have caused it? Maybe it was that shot just had. Doctors will say there is no way at all the shot could have caused it, it just happened to happen out of the blue with no catalyst or at least, the catalyst was not the vaccine. But how do we know that? And people HAVE had seizures after vaccines so it's worth looking into to find out why and see if that side effect can be lessened or removed.

I think we're not trying enough to make vaccines better and safer, rather we are saying they're safe enough. They may be relatively safe but if we want more people to vaccinate, maybe we should stop just screaming at them that they're stupid and just work on making vaccines that don't carry as many side effects. (I've read the manufacturer's inserts on vaccines and it's not like they're denying things can happen. They also say it is not their responsibility if something does, which is interesting. Doctors also have you sign a document absolving them of any responsibility for any adverse effects of the vaccine. If the vaccine is that safe and no bad things could ever possibly come of getting one, why aren't the doctors, nurses and manufacturers confident enough to take on the responsibility? Clearly they have something to worry about.)
No, legitimate vaccine reactions are not "waved away". By observing literally millions of doses of vaccines it is possible to determine which "reactions" are causally related to the vaccine. That includes, for example, Guillain Barre syndrome after flu vaccine. The increased risk is about one case per million doses of flu vaccine.

On any given day a certain number of people will have their first seizure. It is possible to look at groups of people who have their first seizure and see whether that seizure more frequently happened after a vaccine. Most seizures after vaccines that *are* associated with seizures are febrile seizures, which are benign. Children who have had a febrile seizure associated with a vaccine can be premedicated for fever before receiving vaccines in the future.

Yes, they are trying to make vaccines safer. Every doctor wants every vaccine to be as safe as possible, and the fact is that serious adverse reactions to vaccines are extremely rare.

Vaccine package inserts are legal documents. Every single event that happens during a study done by the manufacturer will be listed in the inset, including a section that specifically says the things on that list are not proved to be caused by the vaccine. Nowhere will an insert say that adverse events are not the responsibility of the drug company, and the only thing the doctor has you sign is a consent to take the vaccine.

Neither the drug company nor the doctor is responsible for adverse events that they do not cause. If one in a million people have an adverse reaction and the other 999,999 do not, the problem is not due to the vaccine. It is due to some abnormality in the physiology of the person who received the vaccine.

A drug company can be held responsible if the vaccine is defective, but enormously complex steps are taken to avoid that. A doctor could be held responsible if he made some error in storing or administering a vaccine.

Vaccines are incredibly safe.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:22 AM
 
5,163 posts, read 2,774,970 times
Reputation: 8275
Quote:
Originally Posted by slyfox2 View Post
Become a Vegan! Iíve not had a respiratory infection(or any infection actually) since I became a Vegan. Iím really convinced that these bugs are transferred in meat and chicken, or at least eating meat and chicken dramatically increases your susceptibility to them. Iím 68 yo by the way, and have only ever gotten the flu in a year that I was convinced to take the flu shot. I have a history of personal experience to go on. The CDC etc. doesnít live in my body. Besides, the CDC simply does whatever the drug companies tell it to do or say.

My daughter has been a dedicated vegan since college, is also very athletic. But, that hasnít prevented her from getting sick 3-4 times a winter with very bad URIs, that she says she catches from coworkers who come to work sick...same with her vegan spouse, who also takes crowded public transit to work.

Because the flu is so bad this year, daughter got a flu shot for the first time ever.

Please donít make unsubstantiated claims about the benefits of veganism, especially pertaining to the flu.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,547 posts, read 17,537,530 times
Reputation: 16771
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamillaB View Post
I think a lot of legitimate vaccine reactions are waved away because of this. The doctors think oh, well it just randomly happened and you just happened to have the shot before it happened and it was going to happen anyway. But how can we know that for sure? If you are healthy and have a shot and the next day have a seizure, one might say well, what could have caused it? Maybe it was that shot just had. Doctors will say there is no way at all the shot could have caused it, it just happened to happen out of the blue with no catalyst or at least, the catalyst was not the vaccine. But how do we know that? And people HAVE had seizures after vaccines so it's worth looking into to find out why and see if that side effect can be lessened or removed.

I think we're not trying enough to make vaccines better and safer, rather we are saying they're safe enough. They may be relatively safe but if we want more people to vaccinate, maybe we should stop just screaming at them that they're stupid and just work on making vaccines that don't carry as many side effects. (I've read the manufacturer's inserts on vaccines and it's not like they're denying things can happen. They also say it is not their responsibility if something does, which is interesting. Doctors also have you sign a document absolving them of any responsibility for any adverse effects of the vaccine. If the vaccine is that safe and no bad things could ever possibly come of getting one, why aren't the doctors, nurses and manufacturers confident enough to take on the responsibility? Clearly they have something to worry about.)
They have been open in some ways. They are saying it may have very little effect even if you get a shot, not just in small ways but in much worse ones. The vaccine was too rushed and it was largely never tested. So the public gets to be the guiney pigs?

What I heard was at best it may be no more than ten percent effective. That leaved 90 which it doesn't do anything for. That's worse than my odds, so I'm not partaking of it.
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Old 02-04-2018, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,242,738 times
Reputation: 28974
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
They have been open in some ways. They are saying it may have very little effect even if you get a shot, not just in small ways but in much worse ones. The vaccine was too rushed and it was largely never tested. So the public gets to be the guiney pigs?

What I heard was at best it may be no more than ten percent effective. That leaved 90 which it doesn't do anything for. That's worse than my odds, so I'm not partaking of it.
The 10% figure is based on results for only one of the strains in the vaccine and is how the vaccine performed in Australia. No one knows yet what the result will be for the U.S.

It is incorrect that the vaccine was "too rushed" and "largely never tested". The technology behind the vaccine is well tested. What changes from year to year is the viral strains used to make it. The problem is that one of the A viruses mutated during production of the vaccine so that it did not match well with the original strain it was derived from.

I do not understand what you mean by "worse than my odds." From my point of view even 10% protection is better than no protection.

No one is saying that it "may have very little effect even if you get a shot, not just in small ways but in much worse ones." What "small ways". What "worse ones"?

The flu vaccine is not perfect. That does not mean it is worthless.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,431,986 times
Reputation: 15678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Yes and my kitty makes the best nurse.
We call it Fur Therapy.
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Prescott AZ
6,123 posts, read 9,073,863 times
Reputation: 11545
This is my opinion. Maybe the flu shot did not give me the flu, but it did give me a compromised immune system that allowed somebody's germs to get into my nose and give me bronchitis. It's been nearly 2 weeks now and I still am drained. I was absolutely fine before the shot. And the only other time I got the flu shot, about 8 years ago, I got sick then too.

Also, I do not see the need for older people to get the "heavy" dose. Why?

I had to sit next to a woman, all day, who was deep coughing every few minutes and I suspect she was the germ promoter. I should have changed my seat, but did not want to offend her, and now I am the sick one. JMHO
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Old 02-04-2018, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,547 posts, read 17,537,530 times
Reputation: 16771
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The 10% figure is based on results for only one of the strains in the vaccine and is how the vaccine performed in Australia. No one knows yet what the result will be for the U.S.

It is incorrect that the vaccine was "too rushed" and "largely never tested". The technology behind the vaccine is well tested. What changes from year to year is the viral strains used to make it. The problem is that one of the A viruses mutated during production of the vaccine so that it did not match well with the original strain it was derived from.

I do not understand what you mean by "worse than my odds." From my point of view even 10% protection is better than no protection.

No one is saying that it "may have very little effect even if you get a shot, not just in small ways but in much worse ones." What "small ways". What "worse ones"?

The flu vaccine is not perfect. That does not mean it is worthless.
What I mean is the last flu shot I got made me much more sick then the flu. My immune system is unpredictable. But it works better for me to avoid the flu by staying away from ways of catching it, including vaccine. There's no way to know if it will be as bad or worse. For the last four or five years, I've dealt with flu season by staying away from people who could have the flu. Works fine for me.

The vaccine may not be worthless for all, but I don't feel okay taking a risk of a bad reaction from it since it has happened before and there is no reason to assume it can't. This also applies to Anyone with a weakened immune situation. Those who are wary of the vaccine just might have a very good reason to be wary of it.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Central Mexico and Central Florida
7,096 posts, read 3,457,793 times
Reputation: 10158
Mine started Dec. 12th...miserable, cough and so much congestion! Then, a Christmas Miracle! I felt better, at last. But uh oh....Dec. 26 I woke with a high fever (102.6), horrible aches and pains all over and the worse shooting pains in my head. Off to Dr., sinus infection and lungs were straining he said. Asked me if I had ever had Levaquin anti-biotic, no. Asked if I had ever taken Cipro antibiotic...yes at least 4 times, never a bad reaction or side effect. He said Levaquin was strong and what I needed (since googled and it was the right call, esp. since I am penicillin allergic).

Took the Levaquin 3 out of the 7 days recommended....on the 3rd afternoon I noticed my legs were very sore...muscle soreness...felt like I had run a marathon. Took pill #4 the next day and then read about Levaquin and tendon damage. Called Dr. he said stop the Levaquin....stay off my feet.

Saw him the next day...both legs still hurt but not horribly. He said don't walk too much (I normally walk/hike 2 to 4 miles a day). I laid low for a week, seemed way better. Went on a scheduled vacation to a very hilly area and walked, hiked a lot...by 4th night, I was in agony.

Flew home, saw the doctor the next day. He wanted to rule out blood clots so off to Guadalajara for a Doppler Ultasound. All clear (whew!).

It's over a month since I stopped the Levaquin and my right leg is OK. My left leg is still a mess. Tendon and muscle damage; I can walk 3 or 4 blocks but that's IT. I'm on muscle relaxant and anti-inflammatories. BTW...I emailed my US Doctor and he said he'd have prescribed the Levaquin, too, since I never had issues with Cipro and given my symptoms. He said sinus infections from the flu/cold, if not knocked out quickly can become a recurring problem for the individual.

Taking it day by day now, but be careful of that Levaquin, especially if over the age of 60.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,402 posts, read 28,242,738 times
Reputation: 28974
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZgarden View Post
This is my opinion. Maybe the flu shot did not give me the flu, but it did give me a compromised immune system that allowed somebody's germs to get into my nose and give me bronchitis. It's been nearly 2 weeks now and I still am drained. I was absolutely fine before the shot. And the only other time I got the flu shot, about 8 years ago, I got sick then too.

Also, I do not see the need for older people to get the "heavy" dose. Why?

I had to sit next to a woman, all day, who was deep coughing every few minutes and I suspect she was the germ promoter. I should have changed my seat, but did not want to offend her, and now I am the sick one. JMHO
No, the vaccine did not give you a "compromised immune system". It activates the immune system. That is why you may have flu like symptoms for a while after taking the vaccine. It is the immune system doing its job that causes those symptoms.

Your getting sick was due to catching the bacteria that caused your bronchitis. It had nothing to do with the flu vaccine at all.

The high dose vaccine was developed because older immune systems do not respond as well to the lower dose vaccine as younger ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
What I mean is the last flu shot I got made me much more sick then the flu. My immune system is unpredictable. But it works better for me to avoid the flu by staying away from ways of catching it, including vaccine. There's no way to know if it will be as bad or worse. For the last four or five years, I've dealt with flu season by staying away from people who could have the flu. Works fine for me.

The vaccine may not be worthless for all, but I don't feel okay taking a risk of a bad reaction from it since it has happened before and there is no reason to assume it can't. This also applies to Anyone with a weakened immune situation. Those who are wary of the vaccine just might have a very good reason to be wary of it.
You cannot catch flu from the vaccine. The virus in it is killed and cannot reproduce.

Since people with compromised immune systems are at greater risk of severe flu, hospitalization, and death and should strongly consider taking the vaccine. If you get flu like symptoms from the vaccine, consider how much worse the symptoms from the wild virus could be compared to the dead virus in the vaccine.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Southern California
23,688 posts, read 8,235,451 times
Reputation: 15451
Those two abx drugs are notorious for muscle/joint damage. I hope I NEVER need to be on them. I went thru a major staph infection and had to be on 2+ months of abx IV's and thank goodness not these 2. These drugs are from this class and contain a well known "toxic" chemical. https://www.consumerreports.org/drug...on-infections/
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