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Old 02-15-2018, 07:39 AM
 
10,604 posts, read 14,208,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
snip


My boyhood best friend had ALS and had 5+ years of that. His former employer had LTD and his wife's gold-plated health insurance covered most of it. His wife was basically a hostage in her own house and that house had a wing that was turned into the hospital ward. I can't imagine that kind of situation in a NYC apartment.

LOL thanks for making the case for Long Term Care Insurance. Especially a Partnership plan.

And MANY people have a LTCI that still pays forever because they bought it some time ago.

And those are still available for the wealthy. Like you and mom.

Or better yet, a CCRC. Shame you didn't know about them for mom a few years ago before she NEEDED ALF. She'd be paying nothing but her routine monthly "rent" for all levels of care. And that rate would have been at or below her $40K yearly income. Including meals and transportation etc.

Quote:
Around me, snf are about $130K to $140K. Assisted living is much less.
This is why insurance would help.

When you have insurance you are high up on the list for a "good" placement. Even if it's $400/day, going by your figure of $250/day insurance, your remaining self pay is $55,000/yr. If your mother's income, is $40K, then what's the problem? And you're not limited to only a 3 year policy OR the cap of $250/day.

So let's say, okay, your policy runs out in 3 years. You STILL have your remaining assets you can liquidate BEFORE you go on Medicaid.

Why is this confusing? The debate boils down to people who tend to think insurance is a good thing, and others who think they can predict their futures better and go the self pay route. Which eliminates a large pool of middle class individuals. Especially married ones.

Last edited by runswithscissors; 02-15-2018 at 08:06 AM..
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:44 PM
 
13,912 posts, read 7,416,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runswithscissors View Post
Why is this confusing? The debate boils down to people who tend to think insurance is a good thing, and others who think they can predict their futures better and go the self pay route. Which eliminates a large pool of middle class individuals. Especially married ones.
Right. And I'm saying that this particular kind of insurance is not a good thing. For me. The way these policies are priced, I'm far better off investing that premium money to self-insure. With my family history, it's very unlikely I'd need it for 20+ years. I already have plenty of assets to self-insure against a decade of assisted living, memory care, and eventual nursing home. I write the checks for my mother. I know the math really well.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:56 PM
 
Location: LTCShop.com
236 posts, read 113,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
Right. And I'm saying that this particular kind of insurance is not a good thing. For me. The way these policies are priced, I'm far better off investing that premium money to self-insure. With my family history, it's very unlikely I'd need it for 20+ years. I already have plenty of assets to self-insure against a decade of assisted living, memory care, and eventual nursing home. I write the checks for my mother. I know the math really well.

That's a reasonable approach for someone who is single with no dependents.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
Right. And I'm saying that this particular kind of insurance is not a good thing. For me. The way these policies are priced, I'm far better off investing that premium money to self-insure. With my family history, it's very unlikely I'd need it for 20+ years. I already have plenty of assets to self-insure against a decade of assisted living, memory care, and eventual nursing home. I write the checks for my mother. I know the math really well.
It could very well be.

I thought your original reply sounded like a broad conclusion that it was a "poor bet" and limited to SNF.

Just like assuming everyone who lives in NYC is in a tiny box in Manhattan. There are five boroughs in NYC - ever watch Mob Wives filmed on Staten Island?

And even the other boroughs have some affordable good neighborhoods with houses and garages. No Starbucks. Like Sunset Park, BK $387,800 median purchase. Great views of downtown Manhattan and the bay. And the very cute Laurelton in Queens. $450,000 median purchase....4/3 SFH

They are the demo for LTCI, IMO.

Anyway, good discussion on various needs for various people.

Last edited by runswithscissors; 02-16-2018 at 08:09 AM..
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:40 AM
 
Location: LTCShop.com
236 posts, read 113,265 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
Right. And I'm saying that this particular kind of insurance is not a good thing. For me. The way these policies are priced, I'm far better off investing that premium money to self-insure. With my family history, it's very unlikely I'd need it for 20+ years. I already have plenty of assets to self-insure against a decade of assisted living, memory care, and eventual nursing home. I write the checks for my mother. I know the math really well.
if you are married or have children then this approach is not fair to your family.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:56 AM
 
71,637 posts, read 71,777,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTCShop View Post
if you are married or have children then this approach is not fair to your family.
Exactly , because insurance money has to be there intact always . You can have a stroke like my co-worker at 55 and be paralyzed.

You can't risk needing the money and either not having it saved yet or the markets are in an extended down turn .

Most who self insure or call it self insuring really have no plan. The money they say they will use is the same money they use to generate their income. The 4% safe withdrawal rate assumes that can be spent down if need be to zero.

Not a good plan unless you really self insure properly . That means a huge lump sum of money in safe low yielding instruments.

We got insurance because just investiing that self insuring money normally produced way more than enough to pay a conventional premium.

Our attorney's practice is dominated by supposed self insurers who called their plan self insuring in name only and now got punched in the face.

Then the realization is they still did not accumulate enough or they did not realize the money they will use is now the money the stay at home spouse has to live on
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Old 02-17-2018, 04:32 PM
 
243 posts, read 120,026 times
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LTC is not what it used to be for new buyers.

I looked at it a couple of years ago. One major company (Genworth) was issuing it with an automatic premium increase equal to the rise in costs in nursing homes. In other words, it was an inflation rider that protected them. The company he recommended gives you a pool of money, sure, but you can only draw 50% of it each month for the 3 years its covers. That means you are responsible for 50% of the cost. It was another major company, but I forget which one.

I am a school teacher who earns $62,000 a year at age 64. After paying 7.5% toward my pension and paying my other expenses, there is only so much money to go around. A LTC policy would have cost me about $3000 (lump sum) per year at age 61. That is $3000 that I have to take from somewhere. "Other retirement savings" are all I have. By the way, my pension has no COL increases unless the state passes one. They haven't in 10 years. That makes "Other retirement savings" very important.

So that's where I chose to put my $$$. And I honestly put them there. I save $6500 a year in a Roth and $6000 in a 557 (or whatever the numbers are). I didn't start saving for retirement until I divorced in my 40s so I got a really late start.

But that's all I can do. I will try not to spend the "Other retirement savings" and save it toward LTC expenses if I can. But it's nice to know it's there if I need it for survival.

Medicaid is fine with me if it comes to that. I won't go into a nursing home until there is no other choice. I had an aunt who lived with her elderly brother until he died. She was 95, and he was 90. If you manage to take care of it all by yourself, your relatives really won't interfere.
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Old 02-17-2018, 04:37 PM
 
71,637 posts, read 71,777,271 times
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I have gensworth but have nothing like an automatic increase. In fact costs have gone up as far as homes in ny but we just started our 4th year with no increases
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:55 PM
 
10,604 posts, read 14,208,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernSusana View Post
LTC is not what it used to be for new buyers.

I looked at it a couple of years ago. One major company (Genworth) was issuing it with an automatic premium increase equal to the rise in costs in nursing homes. In other words, it was an inflation rider that protected them. The company he recommended gives you a pool of money, sure, but you can only draw 50% of it each month for the 3 years its covers. That means you are responsible for 50% of the cost. It was another major company, but I forget which one.

I am a school teacher who earns $62,000 a year at age 64. After paying 7.5% toward my pension and paying my other expenses, there is only so much money to go around. A LTC policy would have cost me about $3000 (lump sum) per year at age 61. That is $3000 that I have to take from somewhere. "Other retirement savings" are all I have. By the way, my pension has no COL increases unless the state passes one. They haven't in 10 years. That makes "Other retirement savings" very important.

So that's where I chose to put my $$$. And I honestly put them there. I save $6500 a year in a Roth and $6000 in a 557 (or whatever the numbers are). I didn't start saving for retirement until I divorced in my 40s so I got a really late start.

But that's all I can do. I will try not to spend the "Other retirement savings" and save it toward LTC expenses if I can. But it's nice to know it's there if I need it for survival.

Medicaid is fine with me if it comes to that. I won't go into a nursing home until there is no other choice. I had an aunt who lived with her elderly brother until he died. She was 95, and he was 90. If you manage to take care of it all by yourself, your relatives really won't interfere.
Yes it's changed. I'm glad none of my quotes had a limit of 50%.

Now, the agents give you a very extensive brochure - "Shoppers Guide"...from the National Assoc of Insurance Commissioners filled with explanations, disclosures and advice. And worksheets to help people understand when not to purchase it.

http://www.nhli.org/webinars/2012/AA...eInsurance.pdf

Is Long-Term Care

Insurance Right For You?

You should NOT buy Long-Term Care Insurance if:
You cannot afford the premiums.
You have limited assets.
Your only source of income is a Social Security benefit or Supplemental Security Income (SSI).
You often have trouble paying for utilities, food, medicine, or other important needs.
You are on Medicaid.

You should CONSIDER buying Long-Term Care Insurance if:
You have significant assets and income.
You want to protect some of your assets and income.
You can pay premiums, including possible premium increases,without financial difficulty.
You want to stay independent of the support of others.
You want to have the flexibility of choosing care in the setting you prefer or will be most comfortable in.
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:01 PM
 
10,604 posts, read 14,208,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
I have gensworth but have nothing like an automatic increase. In fact costs have gone up as far as homes in ny but we just started our 4th year with no increases
Check this out.

This website has a ton of comments with complaints about paying but the worst complaints are from people who had no increase for YEARS then got a 50-60% increase. One comment says the fine print says they can compound your increase over time.

The people all seem to be in Illinois.

Yes, we did have a clause that warned us that there may be up to a 5 percent increase in a year. But we did not expect a 51 percent increase in one year. The small print in our contract states that the premium increase can be compounded. Isn't it amazing that the increase came once the company had nearly $40,000 of our money.


https://www.consumeraffairs.com/insu...worth_ltc.html
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