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Old 11-12-2018, 11:17 AM
 
71,735 posts, read 71,829,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperhobbs View Post
The Ponzi part is new money has to keep coming in to pay out to others.
No such thing .. a Ponzi scheme is just what it is and ss does not meet that definition . Just because insurance uses future money to meet obligations does not make insurance , annuities or pensions a Ponzi scheme
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:30 AM
 
52,003 posts, read 41,835,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot View Post
This Ponzi scam needs to end. Shut it down and give the stolen funds back to the victims.
As someone that works with financial mathematics for a living, that claim is utter garbage.

One is an alleged investment, the other is social insurance.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
12,286 posts, read 12,520,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
A much better reform is to raise retirement age.
That works good for the chair warmers, but it's physically impossible for people who actually work for a living.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
12,286 posts, read 12,520,484 times
Reputation: 19480
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
From my perspective, the big laugh is anyone thinking that there is actually a Social Security Trust Fund. That money has already been spent. Itís politically impossible to cut benefits so taxes are going up eventually to pay for it. The program is 75% funded so itís not way off like many other government programs. The payout is massively progressive so it makes no sense to privatize it. The bottom 50% would starve.
If the US starts defaulting on its bonds, we will all have much bigger problems than SS. Your money would become worthless.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:51 AM
 
52,003 posts, read 41,835,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperhobbs View Post
The Ponzi part is new money has to keep coming in to pay out to others.
Ponzi Scheme:
-has to return paid in capital
-spends the resources as well as pays out returns, thus depleting it's own revenue stream. (kind of a key point eh)
-has no authority to force participation
-can't change the size of it's own revenue streams nor it's obligations

Here, let's play a shortened version of 20 questions....

Does it have wheels? Yes.
Does it have a seat? Yes.
Can you spot it on radar? No.
Is it a tricycle? No, it's a stealth bomber.

BUT THEY'RE THE SAME THING!!!!!
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:35 PM
 
13,949 posts, read 7,429,050 times
Reputation: 25451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
If the US starts defaulting on its bonds, we will all have much bigger problems than SS. Your money would become worthless.

That's not what I meant. What's going to happen as the cash flow with Social Security turns negative is that the Federal government will simply borrow the difference. Right now, the 'trust fund' has a $2.89 trillion dollar balance. Between now and 2034, we're going to pay out $2.89 trillion more in benefits than we take in. Unless we raise taxes, that $2.89 trillion is going to be borrowed from some other source. The national debt today is $21 trillion. The GDP is $19 trillion. At some point, the interest payments on all that debt choke the Federal budget. Rather than default, the government inflates it away. Recall what hyperinflation did to retirees in the 1970s and early 1980s. Social Security is indexed to inflation but most other things aren't.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,938 posts, read 14,249,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
No such thing .. a Ponzi scheme is just what it is and ss does not meet that definition . Just because insurance uses future money to meet obligations does not make insurance , annuities or pensions a Ponzi scheme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Ponzi Scheme:
-has to return paid in capital
-spends the resources as well as pays out returns, thus depleting it's own revenue stream. (kind of a key point eh)
-has no authority to force participation
-can't change the size of it's own revenue streams nor it's obligations
Actually, there is only one Element of Proof necessary to prove a Ponzi-scheme.

A prosecutor need only demonstrate that the scheme requires new entrants to maintain viability, because the underlying scheme is defective.

The majority of crimes require more than one Element of Proof, but Ponzi-schemes do not.

Burglary:

1) unlawful entry
2) into a dwelling place
3) with intent to commit a felony
4) during hours of darkness

Prosecutors rely on US Naval Observatory data to determine the exact time of darkness at the exact coordinates of the dwelling place.

If it's not dark, it's not a burglary, it's a larceny. A warehouse is not a dwelling place, so it's a larceny, not a burglary.

Ponzi-schemes have similar characteristics, but the characteristics are not Elements of Proof. For example, Ponzi-schemes often offer high returns on investment, but that is not an Element of Proof, and people have been convicted for operating a Ponzi-scheme when they offered absolutely nothing on return, because the only Element of Proof is that the scheme requires new entrants to be viable.

Technically, Social Security is a Ponzi-scheme, because the underlying financial scheme cannot operate without new entrants.

Without new entrants, Social Security would collapse on its face.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:07 PM
 
71,735 posts, read 71,829,507 times
Reputation: 49289
There are definitions of Ponzi scheme all over and none reflect your version .i would need to see an actual ruling on that to accept it. It makes no sense since all annuities ,pensions and insurance require new money to pay out on a continual basis .

So I can’t accept that without proof. According to the legal definitition it requires a promise of a high rate of return from investment .

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ponzi_scheme

Last edited by mathjak107; 11-12-2018 at 03:03 PM..
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:14 PM
 
Location: NC Piedmont
3,911 posts, read 2,881,871 times
Reputation: 6291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Ponzi Scheme:
-has to return paid in capital
-spends the resources as well as pays out returns, thus depleting it's own revenue stream. (kind of a key point eh)
-has no authority to force participation
-can't change the size of it's own revenue streams nor it's obligations

Here, let's play a shortened version of 20 questions....

Does it have wheels? Yes.
Does it have a seat? Yes.
Can you spot it on radar? No.
Is it a tricycle? No, it's a stealth bomber.

BUT THEY'RE THE SAME THING!!!!!
It does not have to return paid in capital. That has never been part of the plan, much less guaranteed.
It does not pay out returns; that's an oversimplified misunderstanding.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:34 PM
 
2,446 posts, read 2,075,019 times
Reputation: 5701
Whatever you want to call it, it needs some work.
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