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Old 11-26-2018, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
2,879 posts, read 1,406,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRR View Post
So I have $35k in credit card debt. Can I get cut loose from that if I, as a taxpayer, am going to be forced to fund the retirement of people in the private sector?
ridiculous analogy.

First, you got some thing for your debt, I'm suspecting stupid crap that you were too impatient to work for and pay cash for.

Pensioners have gotten nothing for their money.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:51 AM
 
5,556 posts, read 5,071,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MG120 View Post
Just curious,

Are you in favor of taxpayers giving billions a year to the oil companies? How about the bank bailout? What about the new Amazon HQ's?

Taxpayers pay for everything, which is why we don't live in a true capitalist economy. If we did, the gov't wouldn't bail out anyone.
To your first paragraph, not only NO, but HE** NO!

And that's why there needs to be a serious clawback from the private sector.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:57 AM
 
5,556 posts, read 5,071,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
People Hosed for it?? excuse me what about the people who PAID into it all their working years? what about the folks who accepted lower pay for the promise of a pension?
Companies did not just GIVE out pensions, most not all but most had employee pay into it.
Please read this thread carefully BEFORE you comment. I said "Don't get me wrong here, those retirees were cheated, no doubt about it. But it shouldn't be up to the taxpayers to make them whole. That's ridiculous. And criminal."
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,953 posts, read 5,307,586 times
Reputation: 17977
Those retirees with pensions paid the same taxes as you. Some went to bail out pension plans a generation or 2 ago.
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:08 AM
 
5,556 posts, read 5,071,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
ridiculous analogy.

First, you got some thing for your debt, I'm suspecting stupid crap that you were too impatient to work for and pay cash for.

Pensioners have gotten nothing for their money.
You have no clue what that credit card debt is all about. Could be medical, could be from a layoff where the cards were used as a stopgap to pay bills. Could have been incurred on behalf of family. Don't assume the worst.

The question here is WHY does it have to come from taxpayers? Why not the banks, hedge funds, from Wall Street? Why not seize the assets of the managers and executives who brought about this situation?
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:09 AM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,876,173 times
Reputation: 11705
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarc View Post
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...n-fund-bailout

"While public pensions funds have hogged most of the media spotlight, Congress has been quietly taking steps to address a more vulnerable sector of the pension space. To wit, a bipartisan group of lawmakers sneaked a provision into this year's budget deal that established a committee to decide how to prevent the retirement benefits of 1 million Americans from evaporating once thousands of failing "multiemployer" plans finally collapse into insolvency.

That committee was given a deadline of Nov. 30 to propose a solution. And while many ideas have been bandied about (including raising fees, levies and contributions on healthy plans to subsidize their failing cousins), from the beginning, it's difficult to imagine how this $500 billion shortfall (the aggregate underfunding of these corporate pension plans, according to an estimate from Boston College) could be covered without the American taxpayer footing the bill. Adding to the urgency, nearly one-quarter of the 1,400 multiemployer plans in the US are in the "red zone," meaning they will likely go broke within the next decade. And if the recent bout of turmoil across virtually all asset classes continues, the day of reckoning could be hastened. Particularly if the low returns on conventional assets force these funds to place riskier bets on alternative strategies like hedge funds, something that many funds did in desperation during the ZIRP era."

"So it shouldn't come as a surprise that, in the first draft of its plan to save these pensions, the committee proposed restoring the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) to solvency with - you guessed it - taxpayer backed "subsidies" from the Treasury to the tune of $3 billion a year. The plan is also considering raising premiums, introducing new fees and - importantly - cutting benefits."

Sorry, I don't think taxpayers should have to bail out retirees of American corporations. There are many retirees who will be working until they day they die, to supplement Social Security, because their investments didn't work out or whatever. And they'll pay taxes so other retirees can double dip with Social Security AND taxpayer funded pensions. I call BS.

People living a modest retirement, watching their pennies, and people working meager jobs today, shouldn't have to pay for corporate retirees to live in a gated community with three pools, a golf course and line dancing. Sorry it didn't work out. You want your money? Claw it back from Wall Street, the banks, the CEOs like Jeff Immelt who hollowed out GE, etc. Millions of taxpayers who are having a hard time making it don't owe you a retirement. Sell your golf cart.
In the intervening time, thank you very much. Life is great and we appreciate all the backstops congress is looking to employ.
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:50 AM
 
6,598 posts, read 1,361,653 times
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I will consider taking a "no sympathy" approach to retirees in difficult financial circumstances when the government stops supporting "deadbeats" (those adults under the age of 65 or so who CAN work but choose not to and/or who cause misery for others in one way or another).
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:31 AM
 
26,000 posts, read 33,010,516 times
Reputation: 32220
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarc View Post
Yah, I'll tell you where the loans for retirement are: HELOCs and reverse mortgages. Got a couple of neighbors with those.

Nonetheless, I am not comparing college debt to retirement funds. I'm saying let the young folks discharge their debts in bankruptcy if they're going to have to pay to bail out corporate pensions. That's fair.
I have a HELOC. My BF has a HELOC. Neither of us is retired. He uses his to buy his cars - I use mine for home improvements.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:39 AM
 
5,556 posts, read 5,071,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
I will consider taking a "no sympathy" approach to retirees in difficult financial circumstances when the government stops supporting "deadbeats" (those adults under the age of 65 or so who CAN work but choose not to and/or who cause misery for others in one way or another).
My point is not about being sympathetic/unsympathetic to retirees in difficult circumstances. It's about taxpayers bailing out private sector pensions. (not thrilled about public sector pensions, either, but that's another story).

I know a number of retirees living very modestly. I know two retirees who are still working, one as a bagger at a grocery store, the other cuts lawns. Other than their part time income, these two have nothing but Social Security coming in. One (the bagger) saw his investments go south after the downturn. Neither one has a pension. Should they subsidize private sector pensions out of their meager earnings? Or pay a penalty on their Social Security?

For the most part, people would not be sympathetic to the bagger. He lost on his investments, too bad, right? Both live in lower end retirement communities with few amenities. Fair enough, they're living within their means.

But now, you've got these other folks who may lose their pensions, pensions that enable them to live in better communities with more amenities, nicer homes. They worked for those pensions, they're entitled to a nicer lifestyle, fair enough. Through no fault of their own, they're about to lose those pensions. Should taxpayers subsidize their better lifestyle?

Does anyone have any ideas other than "the taxpayers"?
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:43 AM
 
5,556 posts, read 5,071,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
I have a HELOC. My BF has a HELOC. Neither of us is retired. He uses his to buy his cars - I use mine for home improvements.
Lots of people have HELOCs, retired and otherwise.
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