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Old 12-13-2018, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Metropolis IL
1,595 posts, read 1,890,013 times
Reputation: 2333

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
The company did "cough up all they'd promised". They did not back out of any promises. Lockheed Martin did not go bankrupt or fail to pay pensions. This individual took a lump sum and spent it! That is one reason he accepted that the blame was his. It appears he also spent his income as fast as he earned it and failed to accumulate an emergency or other savings/retirement fund.


How does someone make it to their late 50s with only an 8th grade education? Society mandates 12 years of education as a minimum. Maybe his parents or early life circumstances were to blame initially. Getting a GED is not that difficult. He did not bother to expend the effort. Now 25 years or so later he is working as a Walmart greeter. What did he do in the past 25 years? Did he work? Did he spend any effort on gaining some education or skills?


I may be cold, but I ask the question, what should society do for people who make bad decisions? Do we take away some of their rights to make bad decisions, do we let them make the decisions and suffer the consequences, or do we bail them out to erase the effects of those decisions?
What rights do you propose be taken away? Nothing bothers me more than those who want to stick the knife in a little further, to individuals that have had life misfortunes. I don't know what else you want to do to a guy who has to work at age 80. I also didn't read anywhere in the article where he's begging that people like you give him more of your tax money to make his life better.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,883 posts, read 14,221,081 times
Reputation: 16076
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesmarcelina158 View Post
Interesting read on retirement being unreachable for some people.
It's totally uninteresting, even more so because someone's wholly subjective agenda-based view of what another person needs for retirement isn't relevant.

If you listen to the agenda-driven "gurus" you can't retire unless you have $1 Million.

Really? I can retire on $100,000 have a wonderful retirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hefe View Post
Saw that story on the news tonight, fellow worked for Lockheed Martin for 29 years. A couple of months before his retirement at 30 years the company abruptly closed down the plant & he lost his pension & the couple's dream for retirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MI-Roger View Post
I think this story is bogus.

Lockheed-Martin is unionized. 29 years is way past the vesting period as others have said.
That's exactly right.

This is just another cherry-picked story to drive an agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MI-Roger View Post
After writing my earlier post I had another idea as to how this could have happened.

Possibly through ignorance, cognitive limitations, misdirected trust, or total deceit; the employee applied for and received what he thought, or was told, was a Severance Package for loss of his job, when it was actually a Cash-Out of his Pension Balance.

The revelation that the 29 year seniority worker had only an 8th grade education supports this later idea.
Well, I guess it's a good thing union officials were there to guide him and explain to him the details so that he could understand them, offering the best advice possible to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
It is truly disgraceful what companies like that have done...and been allowed to do.
Which part of the Laws of Economics do you not understand?

It's quite simple really. Even a small child can understand the Three Inviolable Laws of Business:

1) You must produce a product or offer a service that is in demand; and
2) The product or service you offer must be of the highest possible quality; and
3) You must market your product or service at a competitive price relative to quality.

Violate any one of those Laws, and your business fails. Period.

Americans don't demand the Chevy Volt, Cruze or Impala, or the Buick Lacrosse or the Cadillac XTS or CT6 because they totally suck.

That's why GM is shutting down those plants: No Demand (not to mention they were not of high quality and over-priced relative to their quality).

If the people of Lordstown, Ohio spent as much time reading Car & Driver on-line as they did visiting porno sites and gambling on-line and gaming on-line and playing video games at home, then they would have known that for the last several years Americans thought those cars totally sucked, and they would have known their jobs were jeopardy, and they could have taken action to better their financial position.

But, visiting porn sites was more important to them, so there they are, out of job and looking forlorn and we'll probably see lots of cherry-picked stories about their legendary suffering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
McDonnell-Douglas' fate was sealed on Friday, May 27, 1979 -- the day when an American Airlines DC-10 lost a recently re-fitted engine and crashed upon takeoff at Chicago, killing over 200.
That had nothing to do with McDonnell-Douglas.

American Airlines caused the crash by trying to circumvent maintenance procedures in order to save money, and they were in fact fined for that.

DC-10 passenger aircraft remained in-service through this Century, and they continue to be used around the world as cargo aircraft, most notably by many foreign military services.

There was nothing inherently wrong with the aircraft's design.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
2,435 posts, read 3,659,178 times
Reputation: 4780
That is quite the rant Mircea.
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Old 12-13-2018, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
14,220 posts, read 44,878,144 times
Reputation: 12797
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
To my way of think the issue is not judging. Do we take away the rights of those who make mistakes where by full choice or ignorance?


The issue is just as relevant today as it was 50 years ago with the subject of the article. People can fail to participate or to contribute to 401k plans. They can do early withdrawals, pay the penalties and spend the money on anything they want. They can run their own businesses and fail to save for retirement or emergencies. They can borrow amounts they cannot afford to pay back.

They can also drop out of college and found companies like Microsoft and Facebook. This is the upside of people having freedom to do what they want career-wise.


Busybodies want to regulate other people's affairs. But they are not as smart as they think, you can't run other people's affairs for them and have it turn out to be much better than having them in a jail-like life.
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:04 PM
 
605 posts, read 188,440 times
Reputation: 638
The average American over 65 lives on about $4,125 a month. With his Walmart checks, their Social Security, and his partial pension, Tom and Ellen Coomer live on around $3,100 a month.

And with a combined income of $3100 a month, he needs to "downsize" and take on a Mortgage?

He worked a good or decent enough job for 29 years yet his home wasn't paid off? That is unusual.
So after they pay their medicare, they probably have around $1500-$1700 a month to live on.
That should be enough if your home is paid off.
If he wanted to supplement SS by working a few days a week for min wage, or even 5 days a week seasonally, that seems reasonable. But an 80 year old man working 5 days a week continuously? That seems excessive at that age.


I wonder if he truly needs to work. Their health insurance must not have covered her medical issues very well.

Last edited by BumbleBeeHunter; 12-13-2018 at 07:28 PM..
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:01 PM
 
111 posts, read 87,645 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by TattedCOdude View Post
I cannot fathom any of my professors caring who took their class nor what the majors were as long as the tuition checks cleared. Did the guy feel that engineers do not meet the 'person' part of personal finance?
More than likely the professor didn't like engineers in his class because they could ace the class without cracking a book. I'm an engineer and had a similar class. I couldn't believe how simple and basic the class really was. Nor could I believe how much most of the other students struggled to grasp simple mathematic concepts.

But the thing that really pi$$ed the professor off was if I corrected him in class. I quickly learned that it wasn't wise to do that. No need to mess up an easy "A" grade.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
2,870 posts, read 1,400,541 times
Reputation: 10071
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny View Post
So we are supposed to feel sorry about a union worker who made a hefty salary even though he only had an 8th grade education? He did not invest in his education at any time during his life. He did not save for the future. Apparently he burned through his pension money. He did not exactly put himself out by taking another job until years later when the poor decisions came to roost.


So we can bail out people who are either lazy or make poor choices. Of course that means a cost to those who sacrifice and delay gratification. Or we can take away the freedoms from these individuals. Or we can let them suffer the consequences of their choices. This guy is still bringing in $3100. That is enough where society does not have to step in to prevent dire consequences for the poor decisions. This guy already led a good life spending a decent salary as fast as he made it.

lol, may I ask what article you read?? ok first he did not "burn" through his pension. He was one year shy of being fully vested which means he got pennies.

How do you know what his salary was?

Now my dad did not save much either because when he was starting to work there were no IRA's, 401K's etc etc. people had pensions. that was the deal. you worked 30-35 years you got a pension.

What poor choice did he make??
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:01 AM
 
6,220 posts, read 4,718,283 times
Reputation: 12740
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza61nyc View Post
lol, may I ask what article you read?? ok first he did not "burn" through his pension. He was one year shy of being fully vested which means he got pennies.

How do you know what his salary was?

Now my dad did not save much either because when he was starting to work there were no IRA's, 401K's etc etc. people had pensions. that was the deal. you worked 30-35 years you got a pension.

What poor choice did he make??
He was one year shy and probably got close to his full pension.

What mistakes did he make? He might be able to initially blame circumstances or his parents, but he went his whole life without getting an education. It appears he saved nothing for his future. In fact he is still paying a mortgage at age 80. It appears he took his lump sum and spent it instead of looking for another job. Now that the lump sum is gone, he is again working. You don't need IRAs or 401ks in order to save. I started at an early age. The money I saved from my teenage lawn moving jobs has compounded over the decades and is now substantial.

"People had pensions. That was the deal." Sure, and what about the history of bankruptcies, bank failures, depressions and the like that wiped out many of those pensions? Anyone relying solely on a pension and then spending the lump sum distribution has made very serious mistakes. We only know the facts in the articles. I am willing to bet there were a lot more mistakes that lead to the outcome. BTW, the final outcome is not all that bad. Their income is not all that bad for an uneducated worker who blew a pension.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:15 AM
 
18,382 posts, read 20,110,894 times
Reputation: 26886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hefe View Post
Saw that story on the news tonight, fellow worked for Lockheed Martin for 29 years. A couple of months before his retirement at 30 years the company abruptly closed down the plant & he lost his pension & the couple's dream for retirement. His wife has needed several heart procedures in the following years & they have had to refinance their mortgage several times, he admits they will never be able to pay off the home.

He is in his 80's now & works at Walmart as a greeter although he would prefer to be home with his ailing wife but they need his income. I suspect she was a homemaker & doesn't have much SS. A very sad & I think what will be an increasingly large problem as our generation ages: older people without pensions who didn't really understand investing in IRAs/401ks, or couldn't because of family issues, until too late & the skyrocketing costs of healthcare are pummeling them.
Bs on the lost pension. No company can just take away a pension. Now there may be underfunded pensions or the guy may not of been vested which means he will lose a portion, he may of gotten or been offered a buyout but they can’t “take away his pension” . It doesn’t work that way.

Most people have a hard time in later years due to either a tragedy/huge emergency in life or being wasteful and do8ng no planning for the future. . A person who works saves and is careful with their finances most obviously likely have no financial issues in their late years.
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Central IL
15,201 posts, read 8,509,345 times
Reputation: 35598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I
Which part of the Laws of Economics do you not understand?

It's quite simple really. Even a small child can understand the Three Inviolable Laws of Business:

1) You must produce a product or offer a service that is in demand; and
2) The product or service you offer must be of the highest possible quality; and
3) You must market your product or service at a competitive price relative to quality.

Violate any one of those Laws, and your business fails. Period.
Who said any of THAT is hard to understand? A business exists ONLY to make money. Not to fulfill any promises made to employees. Which is why there'd damn well better be laws and regulations in place so they have to remember those "costs" when they are setting their prices and balancing their budget sheets. If those CAN be written off as nothing, a business will do it in the blink of an eye. And THAT's what is wrong.
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