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Old 07-05-2019, 11:00 AM
 
429 posts, read 104,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
Loving someone is not a "rationalization." Sorry, wish it were that easy. You form bonds with people, just FYI - and even though the person has addiction issues, at core, there is someone I love in there.
Well you cannot have your cake and eat it too. And it seems that is exactly what you are trying to do.
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Old 07-05-2019, 11:04 AM
 
5,405 posts, read 2,813,304 times
Reputation: 10100
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
Loving someone is not a "rationalization." Sorry, wish it were that easy. You form bonds with people, just FYI - and even though the person has addiction issues, at core, there is someone I love in there.
Making your love into a blanket escape route for this person is the rationalization.

You keep shopping around for an answer that is easy on the offender. Just FYI, there is no such easy out.

Your threads should all be merged, including the many future variations on the same problem.
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Old 07-05-2019, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,000 posts, read 54,493,040 times
Reputation: 66344
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
Loving someone is not a "rationalization." Sorry, wish it were that easy. You form bonds with people, just FYI - and even though the person has addiction issues, at core, there is someone I love in there.
People do get this. What we are trying to tell you is that there is absolute nothing--NOTHING--different or special or unique about your relationship with this addict.

When I first split with my husband, I went to a couple of Al-Anon meetings. It wasn't really for me--most people there were trying to figure out how to live with their alcoholic/addict and manage their lives better, and I was done.

But the thing that struck me after sixteen years with my husband and feeling that I was so alone and in such an unsolvable, unique situation was that as everyone went around the room and told their stories, they all could have been talking about my husband. Whether male, female, spouse, child, parent, addicts are all exactly the same person when they are using. They just have different faces. The commonality among them is that above all else, the addiction must be protected.

When I hear your story, it is just a different person but the same story of what I lived with back then. It is just a different person but the same story of what I lived with when my best friend relapsed.

Your loved one is exactly the same as every other addict on the planet, and you are exactly the same as every other codependent they have learned to manipulate.

And the solution is exactly the same and exactly as painful as what everyone else had to do. You have to say no and cut them off. It will save you, and it might save them. It also might not.

All those little ditties that they say are truth: You didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you can't control it.

The very idea that you seem to still think there is something YOU can do--as if you have some sort of special power to help this person--means that you still are not getting that.

The one that stuck with me most from one of those Al-Anons, though, was "If you're always gonna do what you always did, you're always gonna get what you always got."

Think about it.
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Old 07-05-2019, 05:10 PM
 
1,290 posts, read 1,198,184 times
Reputation: 3030
I don't know if someone has already said this, but any "escape" could also become a trap if this person were to follow you to your new destination, and you no longer have the nearby relatives to fall back on for help. You have to deal with things in the here and now if you ever want them to change.
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Old 07-05-2019, 05:49 PM
 
Location: planet earth
4,805 posts, read 1,824,401 times
Reputation: 10665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
People do get this. What we are trying to tell you is that there is absolute nothing--NOTHING--different or special or unique about your relationship with this addict.

When I first split with my husband, I went to a couple of Al-Anon meetings. It wasn't really for me--most people there were trying to figure out how to live with their alcoholic/addict and manage their lives better, and I was done.

But the thing that struck me after sixteen years with my husband and feeling that I was so alone and in such an unsolvable, unique situation was that as everyone went around the room and told their stories, they all could have been talking about my husband. Whether male, female, spouse, child, parent, addicts are all exactly the same person when they are using. They just have different faces. The commonality among them is that above all else, the addiction must be protected.

When I hear your story, it is just a different person but the same story of what I lived with back then. It is just a different person but the same story of what I lived with when my best friend relapsed.

Your loved one is exactly the same as every other addict on the planet, and you are exactly the same as every other codependent they have learned to manipulate.

And the solution is exactly the same and exactly as painful as what everyone else had to do. You have to say no and cut them off. It will save you, and it might save them. It also might not.

All those little ditties that they say are truth: You didn't cause it, you can't cure it, and you can't control it.

The very idea that you seem to still think there is something YOU can do--as if you have some sort of special power to help this person--means that you still are not getting that.

The one that stuck with me most from one of those Al-Anons, though, was "If you're always gonna do what you always did, you're always gonna get what you always got."

Think about it.
The thing is I agree with you. My posts are about trying to protect myself. Thanks

Edited to add: Did you completely cut off the relationship with your daughter when you found out she was alcoholic?

Last edited by nobodysbusiness; 07-05-2019 at 06:14 PM..
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Old 07-05-2019, 06:15 PM
 
Location: planet earth
4,805 posts, read 1,824,401 times
Reputation: 10665
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
I don't know if someone has already said this, but any "escape" could also become a trap if this person were to follow you to your new destination, and you no longer have the nearby relatives to fall back on for help. You have to deal with things in the here and now if you ever want them to change.
Ha ha. It would be far away, so not likely that anyone would follow me, and no one is available to "help" me now. I think it could be a good solution - we'll see what happens with my dog and my next trip.
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Old 07-06-2019, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,000 posts, read 54,493,040 times
Reputation: 66344
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
The thing is I agree with you. My posts are about trying to protect myself. Thanks

Edited to add: Did you completely cut off the relationship with your daughter when you found out she was alcoholic?
No, because it didn't work that way, and I didn't see it. When she was at her worst, she was living in China and I was in New Jersey. She was there for 15 months. I Facetimed with her, and I knew something wasn't right, but I couldn't figure it out. She'd gone there with a boyfriend, so I asked to talk to her one day when he wasn't around and asked her if she was being abused. She said no, that in fact she had been waking up at night with night terrors and nightmares, and that he was great at soothing her until she could fall asleep again.

What I didn't know is that they were using a lot of cocaine and Molly (Ecstasy) as well as drinking while they were over there. Later I learned that Molly can often exacerbate the onset of bipolar disorder in those who are prone to it.

After she left China, she bounced around Europe for a month, and I met her in Amsterdam. She seemed subdued, but I took that to be in part because of her mutually-agreed-upon breakup with her boyfriend. They'd always planned that they would separate after China, but she did care about him so I thought that was it. She didn't overly drink while we were in Europe, and as a matter of fact, I had to practically drag her into a coffeehouse in Amsterdam to get some weed to smoke with me (she never liked pot much).

Because she'd had other mental health issues since young teenage hood (we both have OCD) and had always seen therapists, she immediately went to see someone when we returned to NJ. At that point she told me that she sometimes couldn't sleep for days and that she was having trouble distinguishing what she dreamed from what really happened. THAT set off alarm bells, but she was seeing medical professionals, who put her on a new anti-depressant. She was only home a few weeks when she said her old roommate in the upstate NY city where she'd gone to college needed a roommate so she was going back there to live and would also see her old therapist up there.

Later, when I attended her one-year anniversary at her AA group, she gave a speech and said she had moved up there in order to plan her suicide away from me. I also learned that when she was with me she would pretend to be going to bed and then down alcohol in her room.

Her alcoholism is more of a self-medication issue, which is very common in people with bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses. They use alcohol and drugs to try to control the manic thoughts and mood swings, but of course it only makes things worse.

It is certainly possible that your relative's addictions are masking a mental illness.
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Old 07-06-2019, 08:24 AM
 
Location: North State (California)
39,307 posts, read 2,966,634 times
Reputation: 12848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
Ha ha. It would be far away, so not likely that anyone would follow me, and no one is available to "help" me now. I think it could be a good solution - we'll see what happens with my dog and my next trip.
The needy relative plays you like a fiddle They will be on the phone begging for money or a ticket. Moving is not the answer, YOU have to change before any real change in the relationship will happen.
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Central NY
4,651 posts, read 3,235,973 times
Reputation: 11907
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
The thing is I agree with you. My posts are about trying to protect myself. Thanks

Edited to add: Did you completely cut off the relationship with your daughter when you found out she was alcoholic?

That is exactly what I had to do with regard to family of origin. I was the lucky one who didn't get the need to drink. I went to al-anon and other meetings, counseling through an agency who "specialized" helping drinkers/non-drinkers. Eventually, it was suggested to me to make the break.

It was a huge relief to me. I didn't realize how crazy I was until I didn't have those people in my life anymore. They all wanted to be listened to, rescued, helped in one way or another. Suicide looked good sometimes. Glad I didn't do anything along those lines.

People who are sick with this disease don't really care about us. We are expected to help them. I ran out of being able to help them. I was in a very difficult marriage, had two kids, worked a full time job.

It's not a bad thing to save yourself. And breaking away from sick people can be the best thing you will ever do. The sick one will survive without you. You need to find out you will survive without them.
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:59 PM
 
Location: planet earth
4,805 posts, read 1,824,401 times
Reputation: 10665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
No, because it didn't work that way, and I didn't see it. When she was at her worst, she was living in China and I was in New Jersey. She was there for 15 months. I Facetimed with her, and I knew something wasn't right, but I couldn't figure it out. She'd gone there with a boyfriend, so I asked to talk to her one day when he wasn't around and asked her if she was being abused. She said no, that in fact she had been waking up at night with night terrors and nightmares, and that he was great at soothing her until she could fall asleep again.

What I didn't know is that they were using a lot of cocaine and Molly (Ecstasy) as well as drinking while they were over there. Later I learned that Molly can often exacerbate the onset of bipolar disorder in those who are prone to it.

After she left China, she bounced around Europe for a month, and I met her in Amsterdam. She seemed subdued, but I took that to be in part because of her mutually-agreed-upon breakup with her boyfriend. They'd always planned that they would separate after China, but she did care about him so I thought that was it. She didn't overly drink while we were in Europe, and as a matter of fact, I had to practically drag her into a coffeehouse in Amsterdam to get some weed to smoke with me (she never liked pot much).

Because she'd had other mental health issues since young teenage hood (we both have OCD) and had always seen therapists, she immediately went to see someone when we returned to NJ. At that point she told me that she sometimes couldn't sleep for days and that she was having trouble distinguishing what she dreamed from what really happened. THAT set off alarm bells, but she was seeing medical professionals, who put her on a new anti-depressant. She was only home a few weeks when she said her old roommate in the upstate NY city where she'd gone to college needed a roommate so she was going back there to live and would also see her old therapist up there.

Later, when I attended her one-year anniversary at her AA group, she gave a speech and said she had moved up there in order to plan her suicide away from me. I also learned that when she was with me she would pretend to be going to bed and then down alcohol in her room.

Her alcoholism is more of a self-medication issue, which is very common in people with bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses. They use alcohol and drugs to try to control the manic thoughts and mood swings, but of course it only makes things worse.

It is certainly possible that your relative's addictions are masking a mental illness.
So glad your daughter is doing so well in recovery! It's frightening to hear some of those stories. I think we really do not know others as well as we think we do (barely know myself).

With my relative I think the self-medicating is to deal with unhealed traumas. I have offered therapy, but that has been resisted. I can only pray and see what happens. It's hard when you love someone and can't help them the way they need help. It is totally an inside job - they must seek health themselves.

I realize I have been very traumatized by witnessing a lot of what I have witnessed (and heard about) from this relative. I have to find a way to heal too. It is not easy. It is not simply "going to therapy" and talking. I am not going to give up, though.

I saw the person today and was triggered because old traumas were discussed - that made me realize there is something unhealed in me that needs attention.
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