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Old 07-07-2019, 04:32 PM
 
2,080 posts, read 706,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MI-Roger View Post
My Mother had their Attorney do Asset Preservation for her back in '91 when my Dad was permanently incapacitated by a massive stroke and needed Skilled Nursing care. At that time it was a 3-year look back period so the Attorney divided their assets so that my Dad's accounts were sufficiently funded for 3-years of Nursing Home costs. Everything else went to my Mom. Dad died after approximately 34 months in the Home so he remained Private Pay the whole time, but the plan to protect assets for my Mother was in place had he lived longer.
Now this is something I would actually be able to do with a clear conscience. I realize that now it would need to be 5 years, but it's a solution that takes significant responsibility for your own LTC costs but doesn't impoverish the spouse before Medicaid kicks in.

But I'm still not remarrying!
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Old 07-07-2019, 05:07 PM
 
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The problem is timing things so nothing happens over the 5 year window ...you know my friend Murphy?

But here is the problem ....you may protect the assets but if Medicaid is used you can’t protect the stay at home spouses income ..... Great you may have saved a million bucks in assets , but now try living on 3160.00 a month in nyc..what an awful life that buys here ...

This is why we wanted our New York partnership plan with 100% protected assets and no income limit on the stay at home spouse...


People always talk about preserving assets but not about income for the spouse at home which is severely restricted

Last edited by mathjak107; 07-07-2019 at 05:16 PM..
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Old 07-07-2019, 06:05 PM
 
2,080 posts, read 706,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
People always talk about preserving assets but not about income for the spouse at home which is severely restricted
Oops- forgot about that part, although at least they'd apply only during the period the spouse was on Medicaid, right? It would severely crimp my travel budget.

My other concern would be that at some point in the intervening 5 years the lookback period would be increased- say, to 7 years. I can see that happening if the system gets stressed by so many old people relying on Medicaid for LTC.
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Old 07-07-2019, 06:08 PM
 
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It depends how assets were protected ...if irrevocable trusts were part of the plan then there may be issues just getting at unlimited funds
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Old 07-08-2019, 03:13 AM
 
Location: R.I.
972 posts, read 603,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicet4 View Post

Not sure what would happen with our retirement income if I did have to go into a VA facility.

If my wife had to go into a nursing facility would medicaid take the VA disability check or would that remain mine? If they took half our all our income I would find it really tough to live on $2,500 every month but I think I would do OK on $3,000. Tight but OK.
The woman I work with who placed her husband in our State's Veterans Home he was not a service connected disabled Veteran so he did not receive a VA pension had to forfeit, but had to as I mentioned in my previous post forfeit his entire Social Security check. So honestly I can't answer the question if you would have to forfeit your VA disability pension or not if the same should happen to you.

What I would be more concerned with is not your financial status if your wife is a nursing home Medicaid placement but your wife's financial status during the time you would be in a VA home or a VA contract nursing home. If that should happen your Social Security benefit will be forfeited and what your wife will be left with is her Social Security benefit however that was configured and any pensions she receives from her own work history. So for example, if your monthly income is $5,865 and $3,000 of that is from your Social Security benefit and $1,500 from your wife's, $965 from your VA pension, and $400 from your wife's pension, with your Social Security benefit going away and possibly your VA pension, without touching IRAs your wife's monthly income will be $1,900/month. As I said previously I don't know if you would have to forfeit your VA disability pension while living in a nursing home, and if not, that certainly could go towards helping with your wife's support which could bring her monthly income up to $2,865/month.

It is only after you pass that your wife can collect your Social Security survivor's benefit and in doing so she forfeits hers. She of course will still receive her own $400 pension, but since you are not a 100% service connected Vet your wife will not be eligible to receive any portion of your VA disability pension after you pass. Your wife may be eligible for other VA benefits, and to find out what those are I suggest you contact your VA Regional Office and a rep there can provide you that info. So after you pass your wife's monthly income will be in the ballpark of $3,400/month along with any added income from IRA withdrawals.

That is unfortunate your Agent Orange exposure during your service in Vietnam resulted in you developing diabetes. My older sister's husband was a Vietnam Vet and passed away 15 years ago from lung cancer that resulted from his Agent Orange exposure when my sister was age 55 and their two kids were in their early 20s. My sister and her kid's perspective is that although loosing him much sooner than they ever expected, he made it home from the war and for most of his life following was mentally and physically healthy and they enjoyed a good number of years together where many Vets and their families were not that fortunate especially those Vets who died on the battlefield.

Last edited by Nightengale212; 07-08-2019 at 03:23 AM..
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Old 07-08-2019, 03:33 AM
 
71,508 posts, read 71,674,131 times
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Our estate attorney says that his biggest number of cases are those that use those likely meaningless words , we are self insuring.....

Most people do nothing of the sort ...the money sits in the general investment pool and is used to calculate the income draw they live on ...what they fail to do is actually take that money out of the income generating pool since it is assumed a safe withdrawal rate can go to zero in the ending year .....

You need to segregate that money and treat it like an insurer would .. that means low ,safe returns and the self insuring money is always there ....the problem is that money may fail to keep up with nursing home costs . As well as pull a large chunk of money out and subject it to lower returns or risk needing a lot of it in a bear market and it isn’t there .

So we realized that by just leaving our money invested normally , we could take just a small piece of those gains and pay for a plan that not only provides insurance but protects assets and income after the insurance is up..

Our attorney said he gets those who call themselves self insuring all the time now scrambling when one needs care and the realization that the stay at home spouse can be impoverished hits home.

Those famous Tyson words of wisdom EVERYONE HAS A PLAN UNTIL THEY GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE , we’re never truer then when it comes to long term care planning
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:14 AM
 
Location: R.I.
972 posts, read 603,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
Our estate attorney says that his biggest number of cases are those that use those likely meaningless words , we are self insuring.....

Most people do nothing of the sort ...the money sits in the general investment pool and is used to calculate the income draw they live on ...what they fail to do is actually take that money out of the income generating pool since it is assumed a safe withdrawal rate can go to zero in the ending year .....

You need to segregate that money and treat it like an insurer would .. that means low ,safe returns and the self insuring money is always there ....the problem is that money may fail to keep up with nursing home costs . As well as pull a large chunk of money out and subject it to lower returns or risk needing a lot of it in a bear market and it isn’t there .

So we realized that by just leaving our money invested normally , we could take just a small piece of those gains and pay for a plan that not only provides insurance but protects assets and income after the insurance is up..

Our attorney said he gets those who call themselves self insuring all the time now scrambling when one needs care and the realization that the stay at home spouse can be impoverished hits home.

Those famous Tyson words of wisdom EVERYONE HAS A PLAN UNTIL THEY GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE , we’re never truer then when it comes to long term care planning

I understand the OP said he could not get LTCi coverage but never mentioned why this was not considered for his wife. Anyway it is all water under the bridge at this point.
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:18 AM
 
71,508 posts, read 71,674,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale212 View Post
I understand the OP said he could not get LTCi coverage but never mentioned why this was not considered for his wife. Anyway it is all water under the bridge at this point.
Many times you may be able to get one of those hybrid life policies instead ....they can be the most costliest way to buy LTC insurance even though they look like they are giving you some money back as a death benefit ....they are very deceiving because of how they work but they still offer an alternative to nothing
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:41 AM
 
2,080 posts, read 706,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
Our estate attorney says that his biggest number of cases are those that use those likely meaningless words , we are self insuring.....

Most people do nothing of the sort ...the money sits in the general investment pool and is used to calculate the income draw they live on ...what they fail to do is actually take that money out of the income generating pool since it is assumed a safe withdrawal rate can go to zero in the ending year .....

<snip>
Our attorney said he gets those who call themselves self insuring all the time now scrambling when one needs care and the realization that the stay at home spouse can be impoverished hits home.

Those famous Tyson words of wisdom EVERYONE HAS A PLAN UNTIL THEY GET PUNCHED IN THE FACE , we’re never truer then when it comes to long term care planning
Yeah, the government of France had "self-insured" Notre Dame. Clearly that meant "Don't buy insurance and hope nothing bad happens".

This is a bit of a tangent but I think I'm doing it right. My spending in a given year is in excess of what even memory care would cost. It's sustainable; my assets just hit a new high last week. Yeah, I know, it helps that I retired 5 years ago into a bull market, but 40% of my spending is charitable and travel, so those could be cut back if necessary. I figure if I enter LTC nearly every other expense- housing, travel, cars, etc,- can go to close to zero.

It also helps that I don't have to plan for the scary scenario with one spouse in LTC and one at home.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:50 AM
 
71,508 posts, read 71,674,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athena53 View Post
Yeah, the government of France had "self-insured" Notre Dame. Clearly that meant "Don't buy insurance and hope nothing bad happens".

This is a bit of a tangent but I think I'm doing it right. My spending in a given year is in excess of what even memory care would cost. It's sustainable; my assets just hit a new high last week. Yeah, I know, it helps that I retired 5 years ago into a bull market, but 40% of my spending is charitable and travel, so those could be cut back if necessary. I figure if I enter LTC nearly every other expense- housing, travel, cars, etc,- can go to close to zero.

It also helps that I don't have to plan for the scary scenario with one spouse in LTC and one at home.
Exactly ,, it is the spouse factor that makes this complex.. having thousands a month evaporate from the same asset pool that is needed to support the stay at home spouse in good and bad times can be a really bad event..

Unfortunately you need a lot of money to self insure to do it right and I am talking many millions ..... we were originally going to self insure but many years ago money magazine featured a story on us ....they wanted to put my planning up against their team of pros ....we differed on me self insuring .....they were right , it was a poor idea
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