Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For some reason people get so excited about having a baseball team that they forget about how much it costs. BTW, What benefits were the good people of Gwinette told a minor league team would bring?
While we're on the topic of not spending $ for things that supposedly do not generate revenue (NOTE: some of the revenue figures you previously requested were right in the article you quoted)...
Quite a bit of tax payer dollars go to upkeep of Monument Ave and its statues. How much revenue do we get from that? ZERO!
The city recently discussed helping finance the Museum of the Confederacy. According to your logic, if it cannot generate the necessary revenue to turn a profit...axe it! Right?
Please make sure that you comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkStreetKid
Well if Gwinette doesn't want them and Richmond doesn't want them, they could always live with the bums under the nooks and crannies of the Arthur Ashe Center.
I will refer to this comment...and your previous...as a "Chesterfield frame of mind"...no frills!
Maybe that is why you keep harping on the occasional homeless person near the Ashe Center area. Reminds me of the comments from that Chesterfield government official. But yet you noted that you worked in the area. If you are that repulsed...why accept a job in that area?
At least maybe they're being honest that a AAA ball team doesn't have much actual value.
News reports in Richmond say community leaders are angry over the minor league team's departure from their community after more than four decades.
But at least one sports industry figure there says the loss is more emotional than financial.
"I dont think the direct economic impact of the Braves being here or not is that great," said John Lugbill, executive director of the Metropolitan Richmond Sports Backers, a public-private sports commisson partially funded by tax dollars. "But the positive attributes to the community are important."
He said a much greater loss to the community would be the two NASCAR races held there each year.
I've bolded some of the important part. Though I think the good folks of Gwinette have been snookered.
Now, all of a sudden, it's as if the region asked the Braves to leave on the grounds that they were not having a positive enough economic impact. Or, as if the region made a conscious decision to let the Braves go.
Neither of those statement accurately reflect what took place.
The region was competing to retain the Braves and was not succesful.
As I've said before...rationalizing the loss.
I'd have more respect for all of these after the fact rationalizations of the loss if the Braves were asked to go or if it had been publicly stated BEFORE-HAND by the region that the region would not continue to work with the Braves organization.
AFTER THE FACT...sour grapes rationalizations of a loss and an inability to compete and achieve the targeted goal.
And that was my original assertion from the very beginning.
Some keep harping on the questionable revenue generating value of the Braves (either here or in Gwinnett). The arguements you are trying to make have been made in every city (worldwide) that has a sports franchise...either minor or pro. And most people can agree that it is rarely about a franchise generating some extreme sums of money for the hosting localities.
Job prospects, families, college students, conventioners/tourists, etc. chose to have entertainment options. Businesses rely on entertainment, cultural, etc. options in an area in order to attract, recruit, & retain the previously mentioned groups. That is why some people don't want to accept jobs in certain places.
Arguements that ignore the ability of sports to enhance an areas status and factor into people's decisions to locate to a certain area are arguements that are not grounded in realty.
The Richmond Braves were only one part of what should have been a multi-facited development in the stadium area. That is not the fault of the franchise...that is the Richmond region's fault (in part due to paranoids who harp overexcessively of a few homeless people). And it will continue to doom any great future development that you imply might be better than having the Braves there. As I've said before...the Braves didn't attract the homeless (to take in free games). You know & I know that there is a bus terminal not far away.
I see a benefit for Gwinnett already. I had barely heard of the place prior to this. Now their name will be heard and people in other respectable mid-sized cities such as Norfolk, Raleigh/Durham, Indianapolis, Columbus, etc. will become more familiar w/ Gwinnett. Some of those poeple may actually stop in Gwinnett while visiting Atlanta. Some may relocate after visiting.
All this whle Richmond regresses.
One last thing..Nascar. I know local fans of Nascar who never attend the races. Thay cannot afford it and, as you noted previously, the races are frequently sold out. Not sold out to locals...but to a band of fans who travel the country following the races.
So, how are the residents of the area benefiting?
Revenue, you say.
Possibly (even though I believe the hype is just that).
Especially when you consider that sizable portions of the Richmond/Henrico area must clear-out due to the unbearable noise and the traffic.
And...as I've said previously...Nascar is not exactly what I'd call a "sport" that the entire metro region can rally around and feel good about.
$ is $ but trust me...not everyone is happy that RIR is here. It should have been out in New Kent w/ Colonial Downs.
I see a benefit for Gwinnett already. I had barely heard of the place prior to this. Now their name will be heard and people in other respectable mid-sized cities such as Norfolk, Raleigh/Durham, Indianapolis, Columbus, etc. will become more familiar w/ Gwinnett. Some of those poeple may actually stop in Gwinnett while visiting Atlanta. Some may relocate after visiting.
No offense CNI, but you barely heard of Gwinnett, you are for sure lacking knowledge of Gwinnett too.
A benefit? Hardly. People stopping by while visiting Atlanta? Most do not even visit Atlanta anymore since it nothing more than a Southern Detroit with a crime rate that makes downtown Richmond look like Mayberry.
Move to Gwinnett? Holy Moly! Gwinnett County alone is larger now than the entire VA Beach / Norfolk area. 800,000 people crammed into a 280 square mile county with 50,000+ moving here annually. The vast majority are thinking they are finding a cheaper Utopia until they get hit with a 6% income tax, car tax, property tax, county sales taxes, etc., then if you spend less then 350-400k on a home you may end up with more neighborhood issues that you wish you ever had. Our crime rate has more than doubled to the point where you get to listen about incidents for 20 minutes on the AM news before it even gets to the go nowhere traffic.
Right now, the majority of the county residents are in an uproar over this deal. We were uninformed, we had no say, and one large surprise. The beaucrats committed and now do not even have the funds to cover the deal. So let's add some taxes. Oh yes, they even gave the developer (keep in mind this county is ran by developers) the rights to build the stadium without any new roads! As an FYI this stadium is due to be built 1 mile east of the Mall of Georgia. For example, on any given Saturday afternoon, non-holiday, a family can take 40 minutes just to travel 3-5 miles to get to the mall. During rush hours and a ball game one could compare it to Christmas. In other words, traffic backed down I-85 and Rt 20 a 2 hour parking lot.
This was my comment earlier about the so called progressive mindset which has overtaken Gwinnett. We have been under invasion from NY, NJ (I lived there 10 years), MA, and California. All coming in running from crime, over taxation, and government issues. Then after 12 months of GA they start whining about how they had this and that from where they came and now GA must have it here. Next thing we have double crime, this and that, and outrageous taxation with no infrastructure to handle it.
Yes a stadium would be grand, but maybe a little planning on infrastructure and how we are going to pay for it would be better. Also, as with the Blvd in Richmond, I have yet in all my travels seen anywhere appreciate where a sports stadium has been built.
Quote:
Attendance, however, has been on the slide. Richmond's audience last year was 10th among the 14 teams in the International League, at 414,959.
Richmond Chief Financial Officer Harry E. Black thinks the city doesn't get much financial payback for the money it puts into baseball, whatever the intangible benefits may be. A new ballpark needs to make economic sense, he said.
The $200,000 a year the city spent to help pay off the bonds that financed The Diamond, and helped pay to replace the soggy field there, exceeds the city's tax collections, he said. Last year, taxes totaled $184,000. Chesterfield and Henrico counties, which have also financed the stadium, don't get tax revenue.
The city's tax collections show the Braves' revenue last year was $2.4 million, including $1.3 million from ticket sales.
Food and beverage sales, a portion of which goes to the Braves, amounted to $1.6 million, the tax figures show.
Parking fees and skybox revenue, which goes to the Richmond Metropolitan Authority, the regional body that owns The Diamond, exceed $400,000.
The Braves keep their finances private, but say they lose $1 million a year -- that is, they spend about $1 million more than they take in.
Besides a 26-man team, the Braves have a year-round front office staff of 14 and employ 10 interns, General Manager Bruce Baldwin said.
Let's roll around in some of that revenue the Braves generate.
1st - For both ClarkeStreetKid & Georgia.
When all is said & done...we're all just debating/discussing. I appreciate the back-&-forth...the Richmond site needs more.
Back to the matter @ hand...
See above. YOUR (ClarkStreetKid) info...not mine.
I realize (not sure if you do) that some numbers that are related to this "revenue" discussion will not be made public. You should factor that into your analysis.
And for more info please consult today's (Jan 20th) Times-Dispatch. Several articles on the front page, one in Metro, one in Sports.
My point (substantiated by the TD article) is that maintenance must still go on. Had the Braves stayed then revenue that is barely short of expenses (per you quoted info) beats ZERO anyday in my book.
Finally, would you not buy a suit, get a haircut, etc. and do whatever necessary to put forth your best image and make the best impression when confronted w/ the prospect of a job interview that could reap significant financial benefits? I assume your answer is yes.
Would you expect the employer w/ whom you are interviewing to reimburse you for ALL of your expenses? I assume your answer is no.
Again, everyday this Richmond region is in competition. For students, business investment, families, etc.
As w/ the interview...you invest $ to make $.
My original assertion was that the region failed to compete and win.
I take it for granted that most realize the benefits...revenue and otherwise...of entertainment and recreational opportunities for citizens of a region. If that is debatable...then I don't think this is the place for the debate.
The reason I say that is because it was never a question as to whether the region WANTED to retain the Braves. They did. Not debatable.
The question is whether the region DID what was needed to retain the Braves. Debatable...but most feel they did NOT (especially considering the Braves organization was willing to foot a sizable portion of the bill for a new stadium).
In short...if you are going to be on the field then play/compete to win.
If you have no desire to compete then don't wait for the refs or the coaches to remove you from the game. Take yourself out and admit that you are a loser/quiter.
No offense CNI, but you barely heard of Gwinnett, you are for sure lacking knowledge of Gwinnett too.
No offense taken.
Gwinnett (which I'm sure many in Richmond...myself included...probably could not spell correctly prior to this Braves thing) is a SUBURB of ATLANTA. I am not sure that many general citizens of this nation are familiar w/ Gwinnett (though almost all are familiar w/ Atlanta).
So again, w/ this deal the general public's knowledge of Gwinnett will increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia
A benefit? Hardly. People stopping by while visiting Atlanta? Most do not even visit Atlanta anymore since it nothing more than a Southern Detroit with a crime rate that makes downtown Richmond look like Mayberry.
Move to Gwinnett? Holy Moly! Gwinnett County alone is larger now than the entire VA Beach / Norfolk area. 800,000 people crammed into a 280 square mile county with 50,000+ moving here annually. The vast majority are thinking they are finding a cheaper Utopia until they get hit with a 6% income tax, car tax, property tax, county sales taxes, etc., then if you spend less then 350-400k on a home you may end up with more neighborhood issues that you wish you ever had. Our crime rate has more than doubled to the point where you get to listen about incidents for 20 minutes on the AM news before it even gets to the go nowhere traffic.
Right now, the majority of the county residents are in an uproar over this deal. We were uninformed, we had no say, and one large surprise. The beaucrats committed and now do not even have the funds to cover the deal. So let's add some taxes. Oh yes, they even gave the developer (keep in mind this county is ran by developers) the rights to build the stadium without any new roads! As an FYI this stadium is due to be built 1 mile east of the Mall of Georgia. For example, on any given Saturday afternoon, non-holiday, a family can take 40 minutes just to travel 3-5 miles to get to the mall. During rush hours and a ball game one could compare it to Christmas. In other words, traffic backed down I-85 and Rt 20 a 2 hour parking lot.
This was my comment earlier about the so called progressive mindset which has overtaken Gwinnett. We have been under invasion from NY, NJ (I lived there 10 years), MA, and California. All coming in running from crime, over taxation, and government issues. Then after 12 months of GA they start whining about how they had this and that from where they came and now GA must have it here. Next thing we have double crime, this and that, and outrageous taxation with no infrastructure to handle it.
Yes a stadium would be grand, but maybe a little planning on infrastructure and how we are going to pay for it would be better. Also, as with the Blvd in Richmond, I have yet in all my travels seen anywhere appreciate where a sports stadium has been built.
Oh well
Much of the remainder of your Atlanta/Gwinnett bashing post I will leave untouched. This is...after all...Richmond's site.
Back to the matter @ hand...
See above. YOUR (ClarkStreetKid) info...not mine.
I realize (not sure if you do) that some numbers that are related to this "revenue" discussion will not be made public. You should factor that into your analysis.
And for more info please consult today's (Jan 20th) Times-Dispatch. Several articles on the front page, one in Metro, one in Sports.
My point (substantiated by the TD article) is that maintenance must still go on. Had the Braves stayed then revenue that is barely short of expenses (per you quoted info) beats ZERO anyday in my book.
Finally, would you not buy a suit, get a haircut, etc. and do whatever necessary to put forth your best image and make the best impression when confronted w/ the prospect of a job interview that could reap significant financial benefits? I assume your answer is yes.
Would you expect the employer w/ whom you are interviewing to reimburse you for ALL of your expenses? I assume your answer is no.
Problem is The Diamond never dressed up that area, left a good impression on anyone visiting or brought in new business. I doubt we'll have to worry about maintaining the thing as the city and surrounding counties seem to want it gone.
While this article tries to show an impact from loosing the R-Braves it shows how little impact having the Braves go South really would have on the area.
Braves loss to hurt area fundraising - Sports - inRich.com (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-01-20-0232.html - broken link)
Problem is The Diamond never dressed up that area, left a good impression on anyone visiting or brought in new business. I doubt we'll have to worry about maintaining the thing as the city and surrounding counties seem to want it gone.
While this article tries to show an impact from loosing the R-Braves it shows how little impact having the Braves go South really would have on the area.
Braves loss to hurt area fundraising - Sports - inRich.com (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-01-20-0232.html - broken link)
And that's part of the point...you're blaming the wrong entity.
Richmond Braves baseball, in conjunction w/ other vibrant options in the area, would have been a winner. It is a model that works in other cities. It is a model people were pushing for here.
Again, pointing the finger of blame to the minor league baseball team is not correct.
The same fate will befall Stony Point Shopping Center if supporting development does not occur to give people more options for their efforts to reach the place.
Please answer my questions regarding the specific $ zapping "attractions" I mentioned and why the region should continue to "waste" $ on these revenue loosing ventures.
Much of the remainder of your Atlanta/Gwinnett bashing post I will leave untouched. This is...after all...Richmond's site.
True, my error. Back to Richmond.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
