Richmond – The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (Lakeside: apartment, rental)
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Interesting reading, thanks for your writeup. I'd quibble with some of the things, but not sure it would make a difference in your conclusions (for example, farm to table and breweries are a huge thing here, but you could easily have missed scotts addition).
I wasn't really comparing Minneapolis to Richmond I was just saying I was surprised that there are a few things in Richmond that are as good/better than Minneapolis.
Actually I avoided Scotts Addition as I knew there was a bad area up that way, but I wasn't sure how far north it was. By that point I'd been walking around museums, The Fan, and Carytown all day so I was pretty tired.
Jackson Ward was a place I made sure to check out as I thought (at least when I was looking at street view) that was the area I wanted to move to if I moved to Richmond. Also thought Downtown played a bigger role than it seems to before I got there. Still has great bones. They need to bring it back.
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
I bet you stayed downtown.
Nope. Stayed on the south side. Kind of wanted to get an idea of how bad the city got. Although the 1st day I did use downtown as my jumping off point.
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
Though I think Austin in the early 90s is a better comparison.
Could be. I'm not familiar with early 90s Austin.
Yeah, weather and low taxes are probably the draw over Pittsburgh. Haven't asked anyone on that front though. I was surprised how close Pittsburgh and Richmond are (just good in different areas). Only thing that really gives it the upper hand is pro sports and just having more amenities.
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
unlikely to have discovered the sort of hidden beaches and trails
Not sure how I did on that front. Found 3 of those rocky type beaches and another very small sandy area over a wall that could have passed for a beach I guess. Found a bunch of shortcuts to places in The Fan. A few alleys that looked like they went through downtown and in Carytown. Didn't check those out though.
The majority of the stuff that I noticed was closed on all three days was mostly downtown and in Shockoe. Up by campus it was a little better. Still lot of early close times though.
The bike riding thing was just all over. There were people out, but I was expecting so much more from the way people were talking about it.
Local CD people at least seem to love Monroe Park. I have no idea.
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
I actually don't understand this, could you expand?
Sure. It's like the city knows this is one of their gems and they think they can keep making it better and better. Usually these areas in other cities have more of a lived in feel whereas Carytown felt like people were coming in from other areas like The Fan or burbs to shop and leave. Saw a lot of indie focused stuff there at designer prices.
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
Actually never eaten at those places that I can recall. Richmond has great food, no point on wasting a meal there. I think they are more drinkers munchies places.
Yeah, that was basically the point. I knew I didn't have enough time to get to all the food places I wanted to get to so I figured if I just went to some local dive type places I was going to get food in its lowest passable form. Surprisingly most of it was better than what we can get here in Asheville.
The whole farm-to-fork and microbrew thing just doesn't seem like a focus to me, not that it is not a big deal. Asheville on the other hand someone in, I don't know, the UK knows it's known for brewing (because it lets you know every chance you get).
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
Your conclusion seems to be only Pittsburgh is better? I'd guess Minneapolis as well?
Nope there are places better and places that are worse. Pittsburgh and Richmond are a lot closer than their metros would suggest. Minneapolis is in another league, but if you're there you still have to deal with the weather (I'd imagine a deal breaker for most).
If anything I'd say if you doubled the size of St. Paul you'd get something similar to Richmond as far as the twin cities go.
Only really big downside I saw was Richmond needs to get its public transportation going. I guess from a social aspect it isn't going to be a place for everyone, but a place everyone might eventually want to be in.
In terms of growth stages, though not in terms of character, it feels like Portland around 2001. ie starting to move, the move/intertia is clear, but only a little bit of the stuff that everyone knows will be there in place. But something new opening or going on every day. Does that make sense?
People have mixed feelings about that, I know a lot of people who wish Richmond would stay forever exactly as it is now.
And wow on staying on south side. I can't think of anything there I wouldn't reccommend Staying away from. How was it?
Are you sure you are not confusing Monroe Park for Maymont Park? A lot of people on here would suggest Maymont, but I can't really think of anyone suggesting Monroe Park as a place to spend a lot of time.
I'd imagine they were referring to the whole area as the park and not the park itself.
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
People have mixed feelings about that, I know a lot of people who wish Richmond would stay forever exactly as it is now.
And wow on staying on south side. I can't think of anything there I wouldn't reccommend Staying away from. How was it?
Yeah, it does. In the age of the internet I doubt anyone can keep a place under wraps forever. Probably the only reason Richmond hasn't grown more than it has is due to lack of a brand and/or people knowing it for being a rough place back in the 90s.
South side reminded me a lot of the rougher area in Greenville, SC. Little rougher than N. Charleston, which for the CD crowd is a bit much, but I thought N. Charleston was okay. Probably wouldn't ever have a reason to go there if I lived in Richmond though.
Just finished up my two day scouting trip of Richmond, VA (or as none of the kids call it RVA).
It was a short, but thorough trip (50+ miles walked covering mornings, afternoons, and nights) of mostly the core areas of the city. As I was looking at relocation over vacationing I took a much closer look at the fabric of the city and visited more places locals would go over touristy type stuff.
Here’s the short version if you don’t have time to read it all (more details follow after).
Basically Richmond is a place that is seemingly best suited for people between the ages of 21-27 who want easy living, to just have fun, and who don’t mind dating college-aged folks.
The second best group is probably mid-aged people with families who have some money, still want to be in an urban setting, love architecture, and mostly limit their activity in the city to days/early evenings.
In a nutshell Richmond reminded me of the DIY punk and metal head scenes in places like Seattle and Portland pre-grunge era. At night it’s a little rough around the edges too.
Overall my impression was this is a great city that I wish I had found earlier when I was at that stage of my life. I also found myself thinking that Pittsburgh would suit me better as it doesn’t have many of the downsides of Richmond (with the trade-offs being Pittsburgh lacks a good single’s scene, music scene, and it’s not as good as Richmond is for food).
A few things that surprised me:
* Richmond is a lot hillier than I was expecting it to be.
* How close some great nature spots are to downtown. Nature was much closer than anything in Asheville (or even Minneapolis for that matter).
* A lot of things being closed on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. Also many businesses close early. I remember back in the old days a lot of businesses would be closed on a Monday or Wednesday, but the businesses being closed on Saturday really threw me for a loop. Seems like a lot of lost money to me, but what do I know?
* Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. At first I was a bit disappointed and thought at least it’s a good size, but then I found their 20th century collection. Damn! It was like looking at two-dozen major paintings/sculptures right out of my art history books. It would be a good museum for a major city let alone a mid-sized one.
Overrated:
Bicycle riding. While it’s easy to ride around town I found it was nowhere near as popular as I had been lead to believe.
Public Transportation. This city desperately needs something to at least get you across town. Not everyone wants to have an easy drive or a quick bike ride. Walking one end to the other is rough.
Shockoe Bottom. I wasn’t expecting a lot, but I was counting on a nightlife district. It wasn’t. More like a few nightlife blocks.
Shockoe Slip. Well, not overrated so much as tiny. Sort of like the part of Savannah’s historical district near the river, except, you know, only four blocks.
Canal Walk. Basically it was an out of the way tourist trap.
Richmond Coliseum and the Convention Center. Looked interesting on street view, but wasn’t really an interesting area.
Monroe Park. It’s nice, but just a park. Why people keep trying to talk it up I’ll never know.
Monument Avenue. Let’s have nice monuments that are in the middle of a busy road and nowhere to even get a closer look at most of them shall we. What’s the point?
Carytown. I figured this was going to be a nice mixed-use neighborhood (and it might have been at one time), but as of May 2016 it is incredibly gentrified. Nobody who is the target customer of the types of shops found here is likely able to afford to shop here.
Weird hours. Lacks a lived in feel and sort of reminded me of those people who are addicted to plastic surgery (i.e. we can make Carytown slicker, more high end indie, and more of a place where middle-aged rich folks can pretend to be poor only to end up with something garish).
I was hoping for a more developed Uptown Minneapolis-like area without the lakes, but that’s not what I got.
Jackson Ward. It was decent, but the same issue with Shockoe came up again being too small for the way it’s hyped up.
Underrated:
City murals. All were very nice and surprising when one popped out in an unexpected place. It’s a shame they didn’t let local artists do them, but still doesn’t change that they add to the city.
Walking path down along the river. On street view this one didn’t look very impressive, but in person it was really nice. Had good views of the rapids, which is fairly unique to have in a city, and looked better in person.
Belle Island. Coming up to the pedestrian bridge under Lee Bridge you hear the cars overhead making loud thunderous sounds. At first I thought it was cannon fire on the island doing some sort of reenactment. Sounded cool. The walking bridge itself had some sway to it that made me dizzy on the return trip. Although it looks solid so it’s hard to tell it moves.
Once to the island it had a number of features like historical structures, trails, mountain bike dirt and wood course, and the not so secret rocks people sunned themselves on by the river.
I figured this area was going to be nice, but it turned out to be one of the nicest spots in Richmond. I’d compare it to a better version of the Minnehaha Park area in Minneapolis without the waterfall.
People in this area seemed easygoing and happy for the most part.
The Fan. One of the best if not the best urban neighborhood I’ve been to in the states. Some come close, but the size of The Fan and the consistency can’t be matched.
VCU. Not sure I’d say it’s underrated, but it fits nicely into the fabric of the rest of the town. Figured with as many buildings as they had around town it was going to give it an overwhelming feeling like OSU does when you’re talking about Columbus. It didn’t.
Byrd Theater. It was really nice. Plus the fact that you can see a show for a few bucks (attracting college kids), yet it isn’t trashed is a miracle.
Downtown. Feels like a much bigger city. Although at the same time there aren’t as many businesses as the size would suggest. Litter was everywhere unfortunately. Also as I mentioned a lot of things were only open from Tuesday through Friday. Even stuff like Subway, which you think of as being open everyday.
Food:
Prices were okay. Portions were too big. I don’t think I was able to completely finish any of my meals. Would have been nice if there were half-sized (and half-priced) options. Missed a lot of the stuff I wanted to try like Mamma’Zu and Havana 59.
Sneaked a peak in The Tobacco Company Restaurant, which was really nice, but didn’t eat there.
So knowing I wouldn’t get to do much on the food front I stuck with local dives that are likely not the highest quality of the area figuring if they are good enough then the rest should follow.
Galaxy Diner. It was okay. Food was pretty good. Service wasn’t great, but acceptable.
Strange Matter. Figured I’d check out a place that was sort of a hip/geeky dive. Again the food was pretty good (better than most of Asheville, Columbus, and Pittsburgh), but not as good as other places like Portland.
Noticed the micro-brew/rarer beers and farm-to-fork thing was present here, but not a big focus like in many cities. Guess it’s better that way instead of other cities that media ***** and pat themselves of the back for such things? Probably cuts down on pretentious types who ask a million questions about their food too. Can do meat or vegetarian in the city so that’s nice.
Other:
Lack of signs was troubling. Some area had screwy roads all coming together without traffic signs. Some roads completely lacked street signs so you had no idea where you were.
The twisting, snarling roads overhead (especially) in Shockoe Bottom seemed to be a bit much. The constant car/train noise gave it a false vibrancy.
Nightlife:
Nightlife in Richmond doesn’t just pop out at you. You pretty much have to know where you’re going and that wherever that is will be on the small side.
The nightlife districts were disappointing, but I also found a place playing a full show on a Sunday so that seemed promising.
Realistically though I probably didn’t catch Richmond at the best time to get a good sampling of the nightlife.
Local music and dive bars seemed strong in this city however.
Crime:
Drove around south Richmond (but not the East End) to see how “dangerous” the city was. I’d say it was about on par with Greenville, SC’s rough areas. Not bad, but not great.
The area between downtown and VCU was also a bit sketchy.
At night downtown emptied out (other than police guarded playhouses/venues) and with the graffiti and trash it looked a bit scary/spooky. A number of black guys (mainly) met up with each other and wandered around (similar to what you’ll see in Savannah at night).
One place a group of younger black guys was being friendly and excited while playing dice. During the day it’s fine, but at night you wonder if they are going to decide they can double their bankroll by mugging you. Especially when they tail you and start to be overly friendly (in the sense they’re locals, you’re obviously not, so what’s with the questions and what do you want). Then again maybe that’s just my perspective having been in larger areas.
Another place a drug deal was being done out in the open. They didn’t seem to care if anyone saw. Not knowing a town can put you in a bad place when this happens as some just don’t care, while others think of you as a witness that might need to be dealt with. Thankfully it was the former here.
Although nice cars were parked a lot of places and nobody seemed to be messing with them so I figured it was more bark than bite as far as crime went.
Overall during the day crime seemed very low-key (occasionally you’d catch the smell of someone smoking skunk weed) to nonexistent. At night there was always an edge that made it so you could never completely let your guard down. Not the greatest sort of vibrancy, but as far as actual crime it’s probably pretty low (as long as you’re not mixed up in drugs/gangs).
I’ll see more crime here in Asheville in a single day than I saw in a few in Richmond, but Asheville generally feels safe all the time whereas Richmond didn’t.
People:
Basically Richmond had mostly black and white people. A few Latin people and a small handful of East Indian (but not other Asians) were also present.
As far as groups went Richmond seemed to have a number of smaller tribes such as:
Urban Hip-Hop types: Mostly younger with throwback styles from the 80s to early 90s. Ripped jeans, bright color blocks, swirls and geometric shapes on clothing, sneaker heads with colorful Jordan’s/Nike’s and similar. Instead of listening to music with headphones they put their phones on speaker. I guess that’s today’s version of the boom box?
Hipsters: Unlike hipsters in other places most of Richmond’s hipsters seem to just be about the aesthetic. Mostly their style was preppy hipster or faux thrift store style (expensive clothing made to look vintage or expensive vintage). Although some of them rocked looks from multiple hipster fashion eras. In other words fashion focused hipsters, but not sloppy like you see in the PacNW.
Unlike other areas it’s not uncommon to see black hipsters as well. Think Dwayne Wayne in the show A Different World.
DIY 80s/90s Punks and Metalheads: Lots of black. You know guys with long hair, the occasional scruffy goatee/beard, with some band tee shirt, spikes, and sporting black leather. Stuff like Dave Brockie, Fredrik Thordendal or George Fisher, but skinny. Sort of reminded me of a PacNW DIY 80s/90s scene. Seemed genuine. Nice guys, but their look doesn’t exactly say come talk to me. Some were Millennials who’d rather be a Gen Xer (Slacker, Singles, Reality Bites sort of thing) while others looked like they could have come out of that time and simply kept the metal spirit alive.
I’d say this is the scene that sets Richmond apart from other cities. Both Seattle and Portland mostly lost these types a while ago.
Young Professionals: Both white and black.
Older People (45+): Folks with money who seem to stick together and enjoy the higher end places.
One thing that sucked I noticed more people smoked (like pre-smoking smoking ban levels) and while there were lots of dogs nobody seemed to clean up after them (even on the walking bridge to Belle Island).
Integration:
There were lots of friendly folks of all races, ethnicities, and ages. Not as friendly as other places in the south, but a number still said hello in passing.
I didn’t get that whole down on your own city, but proud whenever anyone talks bad about it vibe. Although when I asked people what they liked about the area they had a hard time articulating on the subject. Might have been a case of southerners not having negative things to say because it’s bad manners.
While blacks and whites seemed to get along and mingle in everyday interactions most of the groups I saw were all black friends or all white friends. Even in the Midwest you get the token minority groups so I’m not sure what the deal was with Richmond.
Also noticed mixed relationships weren’t a big deal, but there were fewer of them than other places I’ve been.
So…yeah, it was a bit odd.
Dating:
I have to say there were a number of attractive (youngish 18-30) women in Richmond. A sprinkling really, not better looking on average (like say Minneapolis), but still better looking than a number of other cities with populations under a million.
Probably isn’t a great city if you’re single and middle-aged or a woman (as handsome guys didn’t seem to be there in the same numbers as the good looking women).
I’m fairly social and over time have become pretty good reading body language so I know when I’m being “greenlit” quickly. From my short stay and moderate sample size about 15% of the women were interested. Ten percent is about average for your regular person. I noticed over twice positive response in Minneapolis (which oddly is known for being a bit cool while RVA is known for being friendly).
While 15% is all right for me I was a bit let down when most of the cute black girls I was interested in weren’t.
Even the interested women seem to not approach so if you’re there you’ll have to take initiative. Although even uninterested girls seemed to still be polite and talk to you (only one actively ignored). So southern manners are still present here from what I saw.
Since I’m not big on fashion I suppose it could have been a case of esteem and importance gained from their fashionable tastes. Anyone who didn’t have “the look” (like some other spots in the NE) was by default less desirable.
Realistically the overall vibe (not just with women) was one of feeling like if you don’t look the part to belong to whatever “too cool for school” tribe the person you are talking to is part of they will treat you like one of the unpopular kids. It’s like they are one of the somewhat nice popular kids who’ll genuinely be kind to you one-on-one, but cave to peer pressure and make fun of you behind your back with their friends.
Other Comparisons:
It’s hard to place my finger on what other city I’d place on Richmond’s level. I liked it better than Nashville (objectively) and Charlotte (subjectively – I’m not very fond of that city).
It’s about 2 to 3 times Knoxville and better in just about every way I can think; same with Asheville including quality and ease of access to nature (although Asheville has more and mountains).
It’s a bit below Pittsburgh, but a bit above Columbus (overall, but not in all areas).
I’d say it’s also above Cincinnati and Madison.
Maybe I’d compare it by saying it’s a bigger, more affordable, Charleston, SC (just because I can’t think of anything that fits better at the moment)?
All in all seems pretty livable and a tad sketchy at times.
Race relations are a lot different in Virginia than they are in the Midwest, and I'm speaking from my own experiences growing up in Ohio. So yes, things are progressive on one front, and maybe regressive in others. You may have been expecting to see assimilation, or if you did see it, looked different than what you were expecting. That may have been why you found it to be odd. This is an entirely different region of the country (MidAtlantic) so less in common with the Midwest or the deep South, a lot closer to the North in some respects.
Richmond does have a stereotype for being somewhat conflicted in that respect, as opposed to some other parts of the state, like NoVA or HR. Whether or not there is any truth to that is going to depend highly on who you're talking to.
I was actually in Madison. I would definitely prefer Richmond to that city; for the weather alone if not for anything else. And for a smaller city, I can see why one would prefer it to Columbus and Cincinnati. Although I do feel that its topography shares a lot with that of Cincinnati. Pittsburgh IDK. That is a different type of city, different vibe than Richmond. Pittsburgh is more post industrial than anything. What is it about Pittsburgh that causes you to compare it to Richmond?
I'd imagine they were referring to the whole area as the park and not the park itself.
Yeah, it does. In the age of the internet I doubt anyone can keep a place under wraps forever. Probably the only reason Richmond hasn't grown more than it has is due to lack of a brand and/or people knowing it for being a rough place back in the 90s.
South side reminded me a lot of the rougher area in Greenville, SC. Little rougher than N. Charleston, which for the CD crowd is a bit much, but I thought N. Charleston was okay. Probably wouldn't ever have a reason to go there if I lived in Richmond though.
South side, for the most part, is actually not as bad as people think it is. I could turn you on to some cute little neighborhoods full of middle aged metal punks who want to be writers down there, if you were interested. But most CD folks aren't going to be comfortable. But the motels are grim for the most part.
On Monroe park, I do think you must have confused it with maymont. Aside from a park in need of redoing, you've got a perfectly fine, but uninteresting, university. I just can't see why a non VCU tourist would get that recommended.
Richmond had nothing but bones back in the mid 90s. In many senses of the word. Good bones, but lots of places did. Then everything came together, and it became a really cool, fun little city to live in.
You combine that with good weather, cheap housing, and proximity to the northeast and you have a perfect recipe for a positive feedback loop. All the classic early indicators are going off. It's like when Hawthorne had a few stores, and my friends were moving into northeast Portland, everyone on the ground could feel it but no one in the rest of the country thought about the place.
What is it about Pittsburgh that causes you to compare it to Richmond?
At this point I'm familiar with most of the US.
Well, I did live in Pittsburgh for some time so naturally places visited will get compared to places lived. Pittsburgh has more of everything, but the overall quality between the two is pretty close (each having different pros).
Plus they are both cities that are hybrids with Richmond being Southern-Mid Atlantic and Pittsburgh being Northeastern-Midwestern (and Appalachian).
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Originally Posted by Charlesaf3
So where are you looking now?
Well, I do have a few more trips lined up for the summer. Sacramento and Tacoma as far as possible relocation spots and Olympia, Portland, and Columbus to visit with friends.
For some reason my father keeps bringing up Providence, which was on my list, but the potential downsides seem to outweigh the upsides. Not to mention going smaller than Richmond is iffy (although it is a bigger metro and has a high density so maybe it doesn't feel smaller). According to my bother it's tiny. Would be nice to have Boston and NYC close however.
I still want to make trips out to Milwaukee and Louisville, but as of right now neither is on my relocation list.
Suppose I could always head back to Pittsburgh or Columbus, but both would certainly be compromises at this point. I'd prefer to check out someplace new and if at all possible limit how much winter wherever I end up gets.
Never been to Sacto or Tacoma, so can't speak to them. Providence... I prefer Richmond strongly, but I could see how someone would go for Providence. It's pretty similar in many ways. Only more old school ethnic port town - think old Pittsburgh at a guess. Also much more expensive than Richmond, because its in the northeast.
I went through a similar analysis to what you are doing 6 years ago and came up with Richmond as the answer. No regrets, I'm sure it was the right decision, we love Richmond. For us, we were sick of cold and bad weather, so a lot of places were ruled out though, and I'm not sure what your other criteria are. If you don't mind cold, maybe Burlington Vt. Otherwise, I've heard good things about Nashville. Portland Maine is probably too small. Same for Boise.
Also, have you checked out Durham? Once again, I prefer RVA, but it might be a better fit for what you are looking for? Triangle is just not urban enough for me in general, even though it's much bigger.
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