U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York > Rochester area
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-23-2018, 08:06 PM
 
56,687 posts, read 80,995,527 times
Reputation: 12530

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
I was gone for a while just responding,You don't stop I took two population figures from the same source/year I am not going to try and match the square footage of 2 cities.
I understood what you did. My point is that using cities can be tricky because of city limit differences and the comparison was just an illustration of that. That’s all...That aside, I think the CSA is just an example of one measure of “influence”. For instance, while Genesee and Seneca counties are only in the CSA, schools in those counties are in the same section(Section 5) for sports with the Rochester metro area schools. So, there is some connection in regards to those counties and the Greater Rochester area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-25-2018, 07:09 PM
 
1,207 posts, read 914,364 times
Reputation: 2047
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellob View Post
As a transplant, I really disagree with this idea of Rochester dying. I know there's a lot of poverty in parts of the city but the suburbs seem healthy. Compared to other parts of the country, people are well dressed, nice cars, homes look well kept, towns are so clean. I don't see much obesity, I see tons of bikers, hikers, boaters, etc. which imo, indicates a good class of people. Once you get to Wayne, you might have more trashy people but whatever.
I've been to most of the major cities in the US and this idea that Rochester is going to be full of tumble weeds soon seems pretty far fetched.
Everyone in NY complains about taxes, that's just part of living in NY. I've never lived with such a bunch of complaining. If an extra 2-3k is really going to impact your life to the point where it's keeping you up at night and you can secure the same pay for a lower taxed area, then go. To me, uprooting lives for $300/month seems excessive but to each their own.
If you notice it's the same few people over and over and over and over again. It's quite frankly bizarre to be honest with you. Why they obsess over Rochester is anybody's guess. But they love throwing false claims out there. I guess it makes them feel good about their failures. I've lived in other cities outside of Rochester and hated living in those cities with a passion. I've not once posted on those boards. Why would I? That part of my life is in my past.

I just don't get some people's obsessiveness. The same posters post their negative diatribes all times of the day. I wonder how somebody is really doing who has time to post on these boards at 8:59 in the morning about how much Rochester sucks and their current life and career is great. These aren't short posts either. I know these posts take quite a bit of time to hobble together. How do they have the time to do these posts? I have a fantastic job and and fantastic career. I make a lot of money. I don't have time while at work to be making these posts. How do they have the time? It always makes me wonder how good they really are doing when in the middle of the day they obsess and post and obsess and post their constant negativity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2018, 01:08 AM
 
3,531 posts, read 1,779,296 times
Reputation: 6233
Quote:
Originally Posted by db2797 View Post
If you notice it's the same few people over and over and over and over again. It's quite frankly bizarre to be honest with you. Why they obsess over Rochester is anybody's guess. But they love throwing false claims out there. I guess it makes them feel good about their failures. I've lived in other cities outside of Rochester and hated living in those cities with a passion. I've not once posted on those boards. Why would I? That part of my life is in my past.

I just don't get some people's obsessiveness. The same posters post their negative diatribes all times of the day. I wonder how somebody is really doing who has time to post on these boards at 8:59 in the morning about how much Rochester sucks and their current life and career is great. These aren't short posts either. I know these posts take quite a bit of time to hobble together. How do they have the time to do these posts? I have a fantastic job and and fantastic career. I make a lot of money. I don't have time while at work to be making these posts. How do they have the time? It always makes me wonder how good they really are doing when in the middle of the day they obsess and post and obsess and post their constant negativity.
There's a couple in the Buffalo forum, too. Seriously, the negativity is so unnecessary. Yeah, taxes suck, you might not make the highest income but overall, it's a pleasant place to live. Give it a rest. It's like zzzzz already.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2018, 01:41 AM
 
1,207 posts, read 914,364 times
Reputation: 2047
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellob View Post
There's a couple in the Buffalo forum, too. Seriously, the negativity is so unnecessary. Yeah, taxes suck, you might not make the highest income but overall, it's a pleasant place to live. Give it a rest. It's like zzzzz already.
It reminds me of when I was going to school at RIT. I remember being in a study lounge and hearing a girl on her phone talking to what I assume were her parents and she was crying her eyes out and saying how her grades were failing and how RIT sucked so bad and that the school wasn't fair. Yeah that's it. The reason why she was failing was RIT's fault and not her own issues.

There are many career opportunities in Rochester. People move here specifically for careers and jobs in their fields and Rochester is one of the few cities in the world providing the opportunities they need in their fields.

And many people who move away come back to Rochester because they miss the culture and miss living here. There's a thread on reddit right now talking about it with the OP of the thread currently working at Nasa and decided to come back to Rochester because they hate living in Hunstville, Alabama.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2018, 03:18 PM
 
1,127 posts, read 861,120 times
Reputation: 1476
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
I read all the other point you posted in many ways your response is the classic NY response because ultimately no one want their child being mixed in with those from "that" district.
And your comment is the classic “race card” response. You make an erroneous assumption.


Quote:
Consolidation can benefit beyond just the central administration but think of it if each district has 2 specialists for the English Curriculum and you combine 12 districts in a county into one (just an example) then that's 22 positions eliminated. If district "A" has an ES that's 38% below capacity and district B needs more class space then it can make sense to rezone the districts and balance the load.
That make perfect sense... at least if you have the facts to support the premise. Do you have anything to back up the assumptions that many/most/all districts have a significant number of positions that are operating far below capacity?

Quote:
Contrary to the fear mongers the kids are not dragged from end to end within the county (where I live), if a community is under federal jurisdiction to de-segregate then more extensive bussing may be involved but I don't know where that is being ordered. Why can't a plumper support 8 buildings instead of 4? How many SPED services can be shared instead of needing duplication the same for VoTech, AltED, and any other specialty program.
I’m not sure where you are getting the fear monger stuff from. Nothing I wrote has anything to do with that. I’m talking strictly dollars and cents.

As to sharing services, I know many districts already doing that. If district A has a program that district B does not, they work something out. I personally took advantage of such an opportunity (many) years ago. This is not something new. No reason to invest in a costly consolidation that may not provide any return.


Quote:
Brockport is in Monroe County, their tax table is 23 pages printed and every entity listed is a taxing authority especially the school districts. Maybe if the schools had to submit a budget and operate under
it they would manage their money better the way it is now they can raise their tax rate every year "for the children". You also stated that salaries down here are less, in many areas i'm sure they could be in some cases but we only pay 5% sales tax to your 8%, our property tax is $8.70 per 1k assessed, Brockport's is $39.23 (approx.) per 1k assessed. Do you really think that our employees are paid 4 1/2 times less?

One page or 100 pages. One taxing authority or 100. How does the cost go down if you get just one bill? The government does not provide a FIOS “Triple Play” discount. You still pay the same for fire, library, roads, etc. whether it comes from one place or several.

Yes, salaries in NC rate considerably less. I’m sure benefits/pension liability is also much less. I’ve not claimed that is the only reason for the tax difference, only the major reason.

When looking at taxes, the total picture needs to be looked at. NC, for example, has taxes NY does not. It doesn’t make up the difference by any means, but it is still part of the picture. Assessment rates are not an accurate way to compare from state to state - or even from area to area within NY. Better to look at total out-of-pocket for a similar home in a similar neighborhood.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-28-2018, 07:15 PM
Status: "How long till Fall?" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
8,141 posts, read 9,580,037 times
Reputation: 8169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
And your comment is the classic “race card” response. You make an erroneous assumption.
No my response is a reflection of what others have posted. Your playing the race card economic demographics is the new litmus test not race but I can see where you would draw that assumption seeing most do not want their kids mixing with the city kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
That make perfect sense... at least if you have the facts to support the premise. Do you have anything to back up the assumptions that many/most/all districts have a significant number of positions that are operating far below capacity?.
My example is generic, I work for a school system that is county wide if I take the manning level of ours School Board and then split the county into 10 school systems that is a lot of people all doing the same thing. I do not have the time or the figures to analyze any NY county as you are asking but ask yourself do you see schools with portable classrooms, have schools closed due to decreasing attendance, are growing districts having to build to meet the need while others have a decreasing population? My guess would be yes and these are all indicators that rezoning could balance the load without needing new construction/closures. My district has made adjustments every 2-3 years as growth has continued and areas grow as other level off, new schools come online as needed and older schools are updated an kept relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
As to sharing services, I know many districts already doing that. If district A has a program that district B does not, they work something out. I personally took advantage of such an opportunity (many) years ago. This is not something new. No reason to invest in a costly consolidation that may not provide any return.
Then according to you everything works the way it is any there can not be a viable saving by consolidating and reducing the redundancies that so many districts in a county creates. What do you base this insight on? I remember BOCES for VoTech as being the only shared resource in the county when I grew up and every system had to provide the same redundant services. Of course thanks to the union we spend more school years starting on strike then I can remember...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post
One page or 100 pages. One taxing authority or 100. How does the cost go down if you get just one bill? The government does not provide a FIOS “Triple Play” discount. You still pay the same for fire, library, roads, etc. whether it comes from one place or several.

Yes, salaries in NC rate considerably less. I’m sure benefits/pension liability is also much less. I’ve not claimed that is the only reason for the tax difference, only the major reason.

When looking at taxes, the total picture needs to be looked at. NC, for example, has taxes NY does not. It doesn’t make up the difference by any means, but it is still part of the picture. Assessment rates are not an accurate way to compare from state to state - or even from area to area within NY. Better to look at total out-of-pocket for a similar home in a similar neighborhood.
23 pages of taxable areas and how many employees does it take to compile that? NY School Districts are taxing authorities what insentive is there for them to ever stay within a budget? Read the LI board every year districts are raising taxes and seeking special assessments because they don't budget for maintenance like new roofs. I have 1 tax rate everything included, no separate school tax and the schools like every other department must submit for approval a budget that they must operate under.

I think our teachers are paid fairly and like any career path they must decide if it will be right for them. We don't have unions and that removes the 10,000lb gorilla that you all have to deal with. I know of plenty of educators in union states that have been hung out to dry when the attendance dropped same as you would see down here. We do have some fees that are irksome but at least were not paying for a highway that has been paid off since the 1980's . Let me ask you this for a home valued at 100k you would pay @$4000 in taxes I would pay $870 what are you getting different to pay such a difference?

Last edited by VA Yankee; 08-28-2018 at 08:19 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2018, 09:27 AM
 
1,127 posts, read 861,120 times
Reputation: 1476
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
No my response is a reflection of what others have posted. Your playing the race card economic demographics is the new litmus test not race but I can see where you would draw that assumption seeing most do not want their kids mixing with the city kids.
You're the one that went down that road with your comment.

Quote:
My example is generic,
Exactly. And that's where I have a problem with the concept. You take a generic example based on what you "think" might happen. No real financial analysis, no consideration of the various factors.

It's a nice thought, but it anecdotal at best, lacking any real analysis of the potential costs or savings.


Quote:
Then according to you everything works the way it is any there can not be a viable saving by consolidating and reducing the redundancies that so many districts in a county creates.
You assume there are redundancies that can be eliminated by consolidation. That may be true in some cases, but there is no evidence to support it across every county in New York.

The only study I am aware of on the topic, which is quoted by many legitimate sources, concludes that consolidation only provides benefits for districts with less than 1500 students. The majority of districts in NYS have more than 1500 students. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that consolidation of districts would NOT bring our school tax rate to that of NC.


Quote:
23 pages of taxable areas and how many employees does it take to compile that? NY School Districts are taxing authorities what insentive is there for them to ever stay within a budget?
What incentive is there for ANY government entity - consolidated or otherwise - to stay within a budget? I would argue that the larger the entity, the less likely they are to be financially responsible. There is plenty of evidence to support that - all the way up to the federal level.

On that note, if consolidation is so great, why no abolish towns, counties, and states to have just one single federal government? That would eliminate all that redundancy you refer to.

Quote:
Read the LI board every year districts are raising taxes and seeking special assessments because they don't budget for maintenance like new roofs. I have 1 tax rate everything included, no separate school tax and the schools like every other department must submit for approval a budget that they must operate under.
First off, in NY the local board's budget - the portion people get to vote on - is only a small portion of the overall budget. Most of the costs are fixed and cannot be changed.

Regardless, how does consolidation fix mismanagement? If your "one" tax rate fails to include that new roof, it still isn't in the budget. Consolidation, one taxing authority, or some other scheme will not magically fix the person who didn't include an item in the submitted budget. And if they do, it is still the same cost on taxpayers no matter who send the tax bill. Consolidation doesn't maintain the roof for free.


Quote:
I think our teachers are paid fairly and like any career path they must decide if it will be right for them. We don't have unions and that removes the 10,000lb gorilla that you all have to deal with.
I have purposely avoided whether other teachers are underpaid or NY is overpaid. That's not the point. The point is that NY teachers are paid considerably more than NC. That difference in pay is the major cause of the difference in cost of operating the school and thus the school tax.


Quote:
We do have some fees that are irksome but at least were not paying for a highway that has been paid off since the 1980's .
Here you make my point for me. Look at the NYS Thruway. "Consolidated" at the state level. You can't consolidate that authority and further. It was built with a bond issue and funded by tolls. The bonds were issued with the promise that once paid off, the tolls would be eliminated. Bonds were paid off in the 1990s and the Thruway Authority keeps charging, often looking for double-digit increases.

I agree NY is screwed up an charges too much for everything. We are one of the highest taxed states in the nation. My point is that a generic consolidation of everything is not the answer.


Quote:
Let me ask you this for a home valued at 100k you would pay @$4000 in taxes I would pay $870 what are you getting different to pay such a difference?
We are getting special favors for relatives/friends/donors to people in power. We are getting expensive social programs that line the pocket of the right people while doing little to help those that need it. We get our freedoms stripped away as if the US Constitution didn't exist. We get a power hungry fool for Governor. The list goes on.


Look, I'm not saying consolidation of a school district or government activity is necessarily bad. There are places is is needed and can work. Those opportunities should be explored and implemented wherever possible.

I simply take exception to the suggestion that a one district per county consolidation will magically cut everyone's tax bill overnight by some substantial amount - perhaps even to the level of a state like NC. There is absolutely NO factual basis for such a claim. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.


(FYI - cuts made to the quoting for brevity.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2018, 04:58 PM
Status: "How long till Fall?" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
8,141 posts, read 9,580,037 times
Reputation: 8169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe461 View Post

We are getting special favors for relatives/friends/donors to people in power. We are getting expensive social programs that line the pocket of the right people while doing little to help those that need it. We get our freedoms stripped away as if the US Constitution didn't exist. We get a power hungry fool for Governor. The list goes on.


Look, I'm not saying consolidation of a school district or government activity is necessarily bad. There are places is is needed and can work. Those opportunities should be explored and implemented wherever possible.

I simply take exception to the suggestion that a one district per county consolidation will magically cut everyone's tax bill overnight by some substantial amount - perhaps even to the level of a state like NC. There is absolutely NO factual basis for such a claim. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.


(FYI - cuts made to the quoting for brevity.)
Rather than go line by line again your summation sums it up nicely. Its obvious that you recognize what your dealing with at the state level and it seems a shame the mafia isn't in charge. They would extort you for all kinds of money but at least they would provide the goods & services they extorted you over unlike the thugs in Albany.

I'm not advocating consolidate every county into (1) district as each one is unique but many could benefit but the NIMBY mentality will prevent it from being considered just as posters state on multiple boards.
An example of their views:

- The great thing about the lower taxed states is that you have the luxury of having the problems like those in the city schools shipped right to your backdoor, and you get to compete to have your kids go to the magnet school halfway across your county instead of a mile down the street.

- My school tax is 70% of my tax and I vote on my school budget. And I choose to live where I did because of the great schools. Yes Rochester area taxes are high, and yes the city schools stink for the most part. But it's isolated and voters do control where they send their kids to school in the suburbs, and they do control and vote on their school budgets.

- I love Rochester but I just can't risk my children's education, we chose Pittsford.

This is their views and I am not disputing them, read the Long Island board and you'll see Schools and Taxes are two of the main discussions along abusive unions, the MTA and keeping city people out. They do take NIMBY to an art form.

Consolidation will never bring your costs down to the NC level that was not implied by me because you have the 10,000lb gorilla the unions and anything that reduces their influence, income, or power will be fought at all costs regardless of the tax burden to the residents. But if agencies were combine efficiently I do think there would be cost saving to pass on if the politicians don't steal them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-02-2018, 10:22 PM
 
1,207 posts, read 914,364 times
Reputation: 2047
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
I'm not advocating consolidate every county into (1) district as each one is unique but many could benefit but the NIMBY mentality will prevent it from being considered just as posters state on multiple boards.
An example of their views:

- The great thing about the lower taxed states is that you have the luxury of having the problems like those in the city schools shipped right to your backdoor, and you get to compete to have your kids go to the magnet school halfway across your county instead of a mile down the street.

- My school tax is 70% of my tax and I vote on my school budget. And I choose to live where I did because of the great schools. Yes Rochester area taxes are high, and yes the city schools stink for the most part. But it's isolated and voters do control where they send their kids to school in the suburbs, and they do control and vote on their school budgets.



This is their views and I am not disputing them, read the Long Island board and you'll see Schools and Taxes are two of the main discussions along abusive unions, the MTA and keeping city people out. They do take NIMBY to an art form.

Consolidation will never bring your costs down to the NC level that was not implied by me because you have the 10,000lb gorilla the unions and anything that reduces their influence, income, or power will be fought at all costs regardless of the tax burden to the residents. But if agencies were combine efficiently I do think there would be cost saving to pass on if the politicians don't steal them.
Since you quoted my statements out of context, my statements have absolutely nothing to do with nimbyism. They are about options, control and the quality of schools. Parents living in Pittsford, Penfield, Brighton have much more control over their schools by not consolidating with the entire county. Again, this isn't nimbyism. This is about local control. And I stand by my opinions that you get a much higher quality school by isolating that control directly to those residents/board members/school superintendents. And it's my belief why for the vast majority of schools in the Rochester metro, you get a superior education compared to Southern county school systems where everybody is competing for those much more limited resources.

The diversity and course selections that Brighton HS students have access to rivals most colleges. All students in Brighton have access to these. You don't have to compete to get into a "magnet" school for your kids.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York > Rochester area
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top