I've never been to the Roc before but is Rochester as bad as people say it is? (Buffalo: neighborhood, buy)

[ckhthankgod]

So what happens when the schools in the other state aren't up to par, the mortgage is higher or the crime is more spread out? Like TO bound mentioned, there going to be positive and negatives and they will come in different forms.

I agree that taxes are a bit too high, but if they get lowered, people will complain about sprawl, growing too fast and traffic too. So, it's a matter of perspective.

[cheese9988]

I would rather have growth and lower taxes. I would like some certainty that people will have jobs in the future. We have many good schools, but we do not have the best. In another words, we pay more for less. Less tax and a more conservative government create growth.

[ncnittany]

Cheese, you can't have growth and lower taxes. Growth means more roads, and schools. Every time you go to the polls, you are voting on some bond. Your schools are nationally ranked. I have lived in Raleigh for 6 years or so. Yes taxes are lower compared to Rochester, but the schools are average to poor, because they can't keep teachers.

I am not sure I understand your conservative government statement. Care to expand on that?

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by ncnittany

Cheese, you can't have growth and lower taxes. Growth means more roads, and schools. Every time you go to the polls, you are voting on some bond. Your schools are nationally ranked. I have lived in Raleigh for 6 years or so. Yes taxes are lower compared to Rochester, but the schools are average to poor, because they can't keep teachers.

I am not sure I understand your conservative government statement. Care to expand on that?

Exactly and the state you are in is a great example of what I'm talking about. Then, people have to think about the corporate welfare that is huge in the regions that are growing and how that will catch up to those states after a while. NY I believe is 20th in that regard and while I agree that the job markets in Upstate NY metros need to be more diversified, I think we have to think about at what cost.

Again, I say more consolidation has to occur in many aspects to knock down some costs and it has to include some cutting of excess postions to work properly. I've stated many times what forms of government need to think about this and I think that people want efficient government, not necessarily "less" government. Less of the same doesn't necessarily mean things are better. So, finding different ways of bring about good services needs to be stressed.

Also, I would put up just about any school district in Monroe County up against the school districts of any other county in the country, with the exception of most of the RCSD.

[HowardRoarke]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

So what happens when the schools in the other state aren't up to par, the mortgage is higher or the crime is more spread out? Like TO bound mentioned, there going to be positive and negatives and they will come in different forms.

I agree that taxes are a bit too high, but if they get lowered, people will complain about sprawl, growing too fast and traffic too. So, it's a matter of perspective.

I disagree, to a point. Using Rochester as an example, the infrastructure could handle at least 100K more residents within the county, alone, as various independent studies have shown. Buffalo/Niagara has lost ~250K in population since 1970, so no doubt the infrastructure there is more than adequate (and well-planned, I might add).

Far as corporate welfare is concerned, NY State has to be one of the worst offenders. The chip plant in Albany (Bruno's, and many other's, fingerprints were all over that one), the "Empire Zones", various IDA's (Buffalo had 4 such groups up until recently), etc., etc., etc., are all examples of crony Capitalism and serious greasing of palms. Other states give companies incentives to relocate, start new subsidiaries, etc., then they're on their own. No bailouts.

NY has a habit of "hooking up" the well-connected, and sustaining their failed business models, their high costs of doing business in NY, and, last but not least, union shops get corporate welfare up the wazoo. NY and several other states were already doing "bailouts", before the Feds started doing it in '08.

Those are the issues I'm aware of in Upstate; I can't imagine how bad it is in NYC.

Companies in Upstate have made deals with the devil (Chuck Schumer) in order to keep their doors open (including a place I worked at in Rochester). I worked at Gleason some years ago, and I left that joint once it became apparent their business model and management were horrid, and they were mullling heading to China or Vietnam. NY State gave them $6M in grants and loan guarantees to stay, with the caveat being they had to keep payroll above 625 employees for the duration of the bailout (5 years). They're now at ~475.

High taxes and utilities costs are the two major reasons why Upstate, NY, has difficulty competing in certain economic sectors. Additionally, wacky labor laws and outright favoritism towards unions (NY is the only state which has more union folks in the workforce, using 1990 as a benchmark year) put Upstate at a competitive disadvantage. Throw in the red tape, cronyism, graft, and local labor laws, and construction costs end up being much higher than that of other states.

[ncnittany]

Originally Posted by HowardRoarke

I disagree, to a point. Using Rochester as an example, the infrastructure could handle at least 100K more residents within the county, alone, as various independent studies have shown. Buffalo/Niagara has lost ~250K in population since 1970, so no doubt the infrastructure there is more than adequate (and well-planned, I might add).

Far as corporate welfare is concerned, NY State has to be one of the worst offenders. The chip plant in Albany (Bruno's, and many other's, fingerprints were all over that one), the "Empire Zones", various IDA's (Buffalo had 4 such groups up until recently), etc., etc., etc., are all examples of crony Capitalism and serious greasing of palms. Other states give companies incentives to relocate, start new subsidiaries, etc., then they're on their own. No bailouts.

NY has a habit of "hooking up" the well-connected, and sustaining their failed business models, their high costs of doing business in NY, and, last but not least, union shops get corporate welfare up the wazoo. NY and several other states were already doing "bailouts", before the Feds started doing it in '08.

Those are the issues I'm aware of in Upstate; I can't imagine how bad it is in NYC.

Companies in Upstate have made deals with the devil (Chuck Schumer) in order to keep their doors open (including a place I worked at in Rochester). I worked at Gleason some years ago, and I left that joint once it became apparent their business model and management were horrid, and they were mullling heading to China or Vietnam. NY State gave them $6M in grants and loan guarantees to stay, with the caveat being they had to keep payroll above 625 employees for the duration of the bailout (5 years). They're now at ~475.

High taxes and utilities costs are the two major reasons why Upstate, NY, has difficulty competing in certain economic sectors. Additionally, wacky labor laws and outright favoritism towards unions (NY is the only state which has more union folks in the workforce, using 1990 as a benchmark year) put Upstate at a competitive disadvantage. Throw in the red tape, cronyism, graft, and local labor laws, and construction costs end up being much higher than that of other states.

I agree with ckhthankgod. I am not sure about posting links, so if it's no-no I apologize, but the following argues the importance of promoting small business, rather corporate recruitment and retention. The Real Economic Danger in the N. C. Dell Deal Gone Bad | John W. Pope Civitas Institute My state invested over 300 million, plus roads and infrastructure for about 900 jobs or so.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by ncnittany

I agree with ckhthankgod. I am not sure about posting links, so if it's no-no I apologize, but the following argues the importance of promoting small business, rather corporate recruitment and retention. The Real Economic Danger in the N. C. Dell Deal Gone Bad | John W. Pope Civitas Institute My state invested over 300 million, plus roads and infrastructure for about 900 jobs or so.

While I don't necessarily disagree with HowardRoarke, this is another example of what I'm getting at. Southern states are THE worst offenders in terms of corporate welfare. I posted a link about this in the Buffalo forum and this was brought to my attention from another poster from NC in the General U.S. forum.

I agree that smaller business needs to be emphasized more across the country, as waiting for the big corporation to bring jobs might be making a deal with the Devil, at times, considering the company might moving to some foreign country in a matter of time. That's why I am glad to hear about small start up companies or small businesses coming back to a main thoroughfare.

[cheese9988]

I agree with Howard, and he really put forth much better information.

A current event on a union as an example:
Mott's Workers Strike Against Wage, Benefit Cuts - YNN, Your News Now

These workers, are making on average $21.00, plus benefits and a 401k. If an assembly line worker can make $21/hr, why did I goto college? And when the company wants to cut back, for expansion, for profit, or declining profits, etc, they cannot because the union blocks them. This is a much worse situation when it comes to the public unions, because the government never goes out of business, they can only raise tax. My only concern, on both the public and private unions is that the management should cut back as well.

"Workers at Mott's are calling for their fair share." Holy ****, I wonder what I should be making with "my fair share."

Buffalo, Rochester Syracuse built their roads, sewers, water lines, etc in anticipation of a population greater than what it peaked out at. We are doing maintenance on our system we are not building a new beltline. This is also the first place where I have heard someone say they do not want growth because of sprawl, considering every city has it.

And as for the great school districts, ie Brighton, Pittsford, do you know what the cost of living is?

[ckhthankgod]

[quote=cheese9988;14324369]I agree with Howard, and he really put forth much better information.

A current event on a union as an example:
Mott's Workers Strike Against Wage, Benefit Cuts - YNN, Your News Now

These workers, are making on average $21.00, plus benefits and a 401k. If an assembly line worker can make $21/hr, why did I goto college? And when the company wants to cut back, for expansion, for profit, or declining profits, etc, they cannot because the union blocks them. This is a much worse situation when it comes to the public unions, because the government never goes out of business, they can only raise tax. My only concern, on both the public and private unions is that the management should cut back as well.

"Workers at Mott's are calling for their fair share." Holy ****, I wonder what I should be making with "my fair share."

Buffalo, Rochester Syracuse built their roads, sewers, water lines, etc in anticipation of a population greater than what it peaked out at. We are doing maintenance on our system we are not building a new beltline. This is also the first place where I have heard someone say they do not want growth because of sprawl, considering every city has it.

And as for the great school districts, ie Brighton, Pittsford, do you know what the cost of living is?[/quote]

What is wrong with West Irondequoit, Rush-Henrietta, Gates-Chili and the other Eastern suburbs? What interesting is that the suburban school districts that people feel, in a real or percieved way, that aren't "as good" are still at a pretty high level and have demographics that are similar to less diverse suburban districts in many Southern cities. To be frank, I think many people might have a view of R-H and G-C schools due to being more "diverse" than other suburban school districts, but are still at a pretty high level when you look at the information on both. Same to a degree with East Irondequoit schools as well. What's ironic is that if said people move "down South" the suburban schools there would have "diversity" at higher volumes than those schools and that doesn't get into the apsect of quality. So, I think that is something people have to keep in mind if they move to the South.

Back to your other parts of the post, I actually agree with a lot of what Howard said, but I just think that moving to the South doesn't necessarily eliminate issues, because it's just that the issues are different. So, it's a matter of perspective and it seems like a matter of time before the unfortunate apsects we see here in NY occur in some, if not most Southern states in a matter of time. That's if they aren't already occurring.

[OverTaxedInNY]

At least in the south you get the nicer weather