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Old 10-16-2009, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Rochester, NY
1,293 posts, read 4,322,184 times
Reputation: 359

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rochacha View Post
I don't think you have to worry just about the unions. Can you imagine what the people in Pittsford would do if you told them that their school district was going to merge with the city?
I think the unions will be very tough to deal with. They make very good money, benefits and pensions. I for one think that they will be among the largest groups to protest the consolidation. However, some unions may not need to dissolve, or at least not yet. RG&E has a union, that will remain the same, they are technically a monopoly in Rochester. If the police consolidated, the union could stay, but as one entity. I don't know the answers, this is just me rambling.

It won't just be Pittsford will be complaining about schools, many of the burbs have great public education. However, more food for thought about what NYC has:

"New York City Department of Education
The New York City public school system is the largest in the United States. More than one million students are taught in more than 1,500 public schools. The public school system is managed by the New York City Department of Education.

The New York City Department of Education is the largest public school system in the United States.
Among New York City public high schools are selective specialized schools such as CUNY-run Hunter College High School (the public school which sends the highest percentage of its graduates to Ivy League schools in the United States; considered one of the best public high schools in the United States), Manhattan's Stuyvesant High School (the public school with the lowest acceptance rate in the country, and the teaching home of Pulitzer Prize winner Frank McCourt; often considered one of the best public high schools in the United States), Bronx High School of Science (which boasts the largest number of graduates who are Nobel Laureates of any high school in the world) and Brooklyn Technical High School (the one of the few public school that uses a college style major system after their students' sophomore year). Townsend Harris High School in Queens is another selective school situated on a bucolic campus that offers small class sizes compared to schools of equal rigor, where the average student takes three different languages including Latin and/or Greek. The Brooklyn High School of the Arts is the only high school in the United States to offer a major in Historic Preservation. Bard High School Early College is one of the few, tuition free, Early College Entrance Programs in the nation that provides graduates with a high school diploma and an Associate of Arts degree. Murry Bergtraum High School is the oldest business high school in Lower Manhattan that integrates an array of specialized courses such as shorthand, and MOS certification courses (including courses that are not offered elsewhere in the United States. The Harvey Milk High School is the only public high school in the United States for gay, lesbian, and transgendered students."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educati...Public_schools

ALL of these are public schools. So it can be done. People do not like change, and they will fight it. But hey, what we have now DOES NOT WORK. Upstate NY is still on a downward spiral, maybe we should start doing what other cities have done to fix their problems.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:33 PM
 
56,310 posts, read 80,538,246 times
Reputation: 12425
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese9988 View Post
I think the unions will be very tough to deal with. They make very good money, benefits and pensions. I for one think that they will be among the largest groups to protest the consolidation. However, some unions may not need to dissolve, or at least not yet. RG&E has a union, that will remain the same, they are technically a monopoly in Rochester. If the police consolidated, the union could stay, but as one entity. I don't know the answers, this is just me rambling.

It won't just be Pittsford will be complaining about schools, many of the burbs have great public education. However, more food for thought about what NYC has:

"New York City Department of Education
The New York City public school system is the largest in the United States. More than one million students are taught in more than 1,500 public schools. The public school system is managed by the New York City Department of Education.

The New York City Department of Education is the largest public school system in the United States.
Among New York City public high schools are selective specialized schools such as CUNY-run Hunter College High School (the public school which sends the highest percentage of its graduates to Ivy League schools in the United States; considered one of the best public high schools in the United States), Manhattan's Stuyvesant High School (the public school with the lowest acceptance rate in the country, and the teaching home of Pulitzer Prize winner Frank McCourt; often considered one of the best public high schools in the United States), Bronx High School of Science (which boasts the largest number of graduates who are Nobel Laureates of any high school in the world) and Brooklyn Technical High School (the one of the few public school that uses a college style major system after their students' sophomore year). Townsend Harris High School in Queens is another selective school situated on a bucolic campus that offers small class sizes compared to schools of equal rigor, where the average student takes three different languages including Latin and/or Greek. The Brooklyn High School of the Arts is the only high school in the United States to offer a major in Historic Preservation. Bard High School Early College is one of the few, tuition free, Early College Entrance Programs in the nation that provides graduates with a high school diploma and an Associate of Arts degree. Murry Bergtraum High School is the oldest business high school in Lower Manhattan that integrates an array of specialized courses such as shorthand, and MOS certification courses (including courses that are not offered elsewhere in the United States. The Harvey Milk High School is the only public high school in the United States for gay, lesbian, and transgendered students."
From: Education in New York City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ALL of these are public schools. So it can be done. People do not like change, and they will fight it. But hey, what we have now DOES NOT WORK. Upstate NY is still on a downward spiral, maybe we should start doing what other cities have done to fix their problems.
Buffalo has some good public high schools too. People forget about City Honors, which is one of the best public HS's in the country, Hutchinson Central Tech(aka Hutch Tech), which graduates around 90% of it's kids regularly, DiVinci graduated 90% of it's kids, Emerson-88% of it's kids and even schools like Visual Performing Arts-77% and McKinley Vocational-77%, graduates a good amount of their kids within 4 years. Rochester's best city HS School of the Arts, graduated 87% of it's kids within 4 years. So, Upstate NY already has examples of good public urban high schools that they can be examples of other urban high schools in Upstate NY.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:35 PM
 
56,310 posts, read 80,538,246 times
Reputation: 12425
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese9988 View Post
I have been pro-consolidation for awhile. The two complaints that I usually hear about from people are: that they feel the "trash" will work their way into their neighborhood, and the local government that did serve them before would be gone and they would have more problems with services.

I have listened to, and read a few articles on this. One talk show compared upstate NY to NYC and why NYC still does well and upstate NY does not. One example that I thought was outstanding, was the fact that NYC has one school district for 8 million+ people. Rochester has (forget the exact number) almost 19 for the metro area. NYC different layers of government. But again 8 million people. Rochester 200k+.

NYC combined Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and Staten Island into one city. The Rochester metro has Rochester, Irondequoit, Greece, Henrietta, Gates, Pittsford, Brighton, etc. The Rochester metro population is still only 1 mill+. Now each of those cities, towns, neighborhoods, and the county they are contained in, all have their own government. NYC has one fire department, the Rochester metro has many.

Now for the people who are worried about the consolidation problems. The cities that have tried this have had reduced amount of crime per capita. So either the population went up to offset the problem, or violent crime went down. Indianapolis for example. "Nonetheless, crime in impoverished inner-city neighborhoods remains a problem. Areas of Indianapolis that were unincorporated or separate municipalities before the 1970 city-county consolidation generally have significantly lower crime rates although their aggregate population is higher than the old pre-consolidation Indianapolis city limits. Thus, crime figures for the Consolidated City and the entire Marion County average out to a low rate." From: Indianapolis Government at IndyIndiana.com (http://www.indyindiana.com/indianapolis_government.htm - broken link)

So the problem areas that were a problem, are still a problem. But overall the crime rate per capita has gone down since the 70's when the area consolidated. Indy is also one of the only growing rust belt cities. Heres more, the cost of living is also cheaper: Cost of Living comparison calculator and Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed and Cost of living: Compare prices in two cities - CNNMoney.com AND it has a good job climate.

Not to bash Rochester or anything but, there is no way that consolidation would not benefit us in some way.
I don't know if I would call Indianapolis a "Rust Belt" city, per se due to the newer nature of that current city.

Last edited by Yac; 11-19-2009 at 05:12 AM..
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Rochester NY (western NY)
1,021 posts, read 1,611,990 times
Reputation: 2311
What does Rochester need? Basically take everything its doing or has now, and reverse it lol.
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Old 10-25-2009, 01:31 PM
 
504 posts, read 1,293,594 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese9988 View Post
The consolidation is a package deal. The city consolidates with the suburbs and BOTH reduce the amount of government they have. Both can now share utilities and services.

The consolidation helps private jobs because there will be less government involvement and more importantly, less taxes. We want more private jobs than public jobs. Increasing public jobs just raises taxes.
I agree with you, and I was trying to make the same two points. So, I'm not sure if you misunderstood the tone of my post or if you were just reinforcing what I said. I was ridiculing the idea brought up by the OP that Rochester should only merge with suburbs which are "dying rapidly." When this discussion comes up in reference to Buffalo, some people say that the city should merge with just Lackawanna, and possibly Cheektowaga. While it may not be a bad step per se, I suspect it could be counterproductive to the larger goal of pooling ALL of our regional resources. If Rochester merged with Irondequoit or Greece, for example, observers from the wealthier suburbs probably wouldn't see any marked improvement in the annexed municipalities (because they are already on a downward trajectory due to other economic forces). I worry that absorbing struggling suburbs into the city would give the untrue impression that regional consolidation encourages the transfer of the city's problems to the suburbs, when I doubt it would have any effect on that phenomenon at all.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:37 PM
 
Location: The Internet
355 posts, read 760,884 times
Reputation: 426
Have the city annex Greece? Are you kidding me? They may border each other but they are basically night and day. Greece is a safe, well maintained, middle-class town with ok to good schools. The city has shoddy roads, is sketchy in most areas (think anything east of Mt Read and South of Ridge Rd), and has a school district that does not even compare to Greece. Most, if not all, Greece residents would oppose such a move, tax implications aside. I'm sure Irondequoit would as well, though it certainly seems to be more integrated with the city currently (Wal-mart on Hudson anyone?). Remember, people move to the 'burbs to escape the problems of the city.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Location: The Internet
355 posts, read 760,884 times
Reputation: 426
BTW, the economy is what happened to the new Paetec headquarters downtown.

Also your map is not accurate, Irondequoit has a larger area than pictured.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Rochester, NY
1,293 posts, read 4,322,184 times
Reputation: 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by RottenChester View Post
Have the city annex Greece? Are you kidding me? They may border each other but they are basically night and day. Greece is a safe, well maintained, middle-class town with ok to good schools. The city has shoddy roads, is sketchy in most areas (think anything east of Mt Read and South of Ridge Rd), and has a school district that does not even compare to Greece. Most, if not all, Greece residents would oppose such a move, tax implications aside. I'm sure Irondequoit would as well, though it certainly seems to be more integrated with the city currently (Wal-mart on Hudson anyone?). Remember, people move to the 'burbs to escape the problems of the city.
While all of this is in fact true. The consolidation has worked in other areas of the country, and the better cities, remain better neighborhoods. The schools will probably be one of the more difficult parts to change. Things like roads may, or may not be easier. The streets, at least on the east side, are not all that bad, I don't visit the north side much because of crime, so I doubt those would be on the priority list anyway. The consolidation will still cost less if there is one agency to take care of it.

The point is, the model we currently use, does not work. The state still has a huge budget gap, we need to think of more efficient ways to operate. I am hoping that something good comes from all this, the state actually cuts spending, on a massive scale.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:01 AM
 
525 posts, read 1,641,969 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
You can still have zones within a county school district the same way boroughs in NYC have multiple zones or districts within them.

Also, turn towns into suburban cities. If villages don't want to dissolve, then make them a separate entity similar to a smaller city. Then, in turn, all taxes within that community are such and not this pay village and town tax stuff we have.
It may have a time and place. However, with the city being overwhelmingly Dems and the suburbs being Republicans, plus the mess that recent Dems have made out of the city (Johnson) and Irondequoit (Heyman), not to mention the City Council and Rochester School District, I don't see it happening anytime soon. I could get behind Duffy, but it seems that Duffy and Brooks aren't the best of friends and such a move would need everyone to be buy in.
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