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Old 02-06-2010, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Rochester NY (western NY)
1,021 posts, read 1,607,753 times
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Where exactly would these street cars and their rail system be physically placed? I drive downtown every day and I really don't see any room for such a system to run straight through the heart of downtown. I really think anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to take a screenshot of google maps or google earth and draw in some lines showing where they think the rail should be placed.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:56 PM
 
6 posts, read 6,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTaxedInNY View Post
Where exactly would these street cars and their rail system be physically placed? I drive downtown every day and I really don't see any room for such a system to run straight through the heart of downtown. I really think anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to take a screenshot of google maps or google earth and draw in some lines showing where they think the rail should be placed.
@OverTaxedInNY I completely understand the skepticism and that's why I am working to provide maps and illustrations of how a streetcar line would work in Rochester. I'll be posting a rough streetcar proposal on RochesterSubway.com in a week or so.

While rapid light rail requires right-of-ways to be purchased and more costly installation and equipment, streetcar lines can be installed virtually anywhere (typically in street along curb or in median) and require no more space to operate than buses. In fact many streets in Rochester used to have streetcars including quiet residential streets like Park Avenue. Imagine that.

Another thing I like about streetcars is they're usually electric powered which means they're super quiet, clean, and run on power that we can produce ourselves without mideast oil.

You'll have your maps and visuals soon. I'm working on this. And don't worry, I'm not charging anyone for my time so your tax dollars are safe ;-)
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 23,281,069 times
Reputation: 4515
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTaxedInNY View Post
Where exactly would these street cars and their rail system be physically placed? I drive downtown every day and I really don't see any room for such a system to run straight through the heart of downtown. I really think anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to take a screenshot of google maps or google earth and draw in some lines showing where they think the rail should be placed.
Streetcars run with traffic , as you can see in Portland , and a few other cities , over the next 10-20 years DC will build a massive network across most of the city , and the NJ Gold Coast & Newark plan on doing the same. Streetcars can 2x or 3x the Capacity of a bus on that route and fit in nicer. Businesses tend to like them more then a bus. Maybe you guys should make a PED / Transit mall in Downtown like in Portland and DC is building.

~Corey
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:24 AM
 
115 posts, read 292,357 times
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I am all for the electric street car idea, but I find the idea less attractive if it only only operates on shared roads. I would like to the street cars operate on unused rail and/or some roads being reconfigured to have separated track, like converting a two-way street into a one-way with a divider, and a track within the other lane.

Broadway/S.Union street would be an excellent candidate for putting down a track, as it is a one-way that is does not have heavy traffic yet in most places it has 3 lanes. As for the unused rail, I believe behind university avenue there is unused rail but I think more investigation is needed.

Is there a cost benefit to excavating track from under the street?
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:37 AM
 
115 posts, read 292,357 times
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL7QEQuRqq0

A modern streetcar, great design.
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Rochester NY (western NY)
1,021 posts, read 1,607,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgover77 View Post
You'll have your maps and visuals soon. I'm working on this. And don't worry, I'm not charging anyone for my time so your tax dollars are safe ;-)
Thanks, I'm curious to see what you come up with. All I hope for is that whatever you propose impedes on auto traffic very, very little. If it doesn't, I personally don't want to see any rail period. In a tiny city like Rochester, auto traffic should never be sacrificed for anything but a bus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Streetcars run with traffic , as you can see in Portland , and a few other cities , over the next 10-20 years DC will build a massive network across most of the city , and the NJ Gold Coast & Newark plan on doing the same. Streetcars can 2x or 3x the Capacity of a bus on that route and fit in nicer. Businesses tend to like them more then a bus. Maybe you guys should make a PED / Transit mall in Downtown like in Portland and DC is building.

~Corey
A) please stop mentioning DC in any conversation related to Rochester. They are completely different entities and share nothing in common other than having people, buildings, and roads.
B) I don't know if you've noticed any busses recently that run within Rochester, but they are far from running at capacity. Every bus I see is maybe half filled at the most.

I highly, highly doubt people are going to give up their cars in favor of riding some sort of bus or rail in to the city. I work so I can afford, among other things, my $350/month car payment, and there is no way I'm going to not drive my car every day if I'm paying for it. Couple that with being able to do what I need/want to do when I have my car, and there is even less reason for me to give it up. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that sentiment. In a city like Rochester, there is no legitimate reason for giving up my car. Like most people that work downtown, I live within 15 miles of the city. My drive is 7 miles and it takes me 20 mins to leave my driveway and get to my desk. That's not too shabby if you ask me, and I doubt it would get any faster with some sort of rail. Even if I wanted to utilize a rail, I'd still need to take a bus or drive my car to the nearest stop and then wait for it to come. Then I'd have to pay to use it. Why do all that when I can just use my car and pay a small fee for parking if necessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machino View Post
Broadway/S.Union street would be an excellent candidate for putting down a track, as it is a one-way that is does not have heavy traffic yet in most places it has 3 lanes. As for the unused rail, I believe behind university avenue there is unused rail but I think more investigation is needed.
South Union is a useless road that runs next to the inner loop, what is the benefit of having a rail there? There is nothing there anyone would want to go to.
And the rail system behind University is a normal route for CSX and I believe Amtrak. That is the rail that loops around with the inner loop on the north side then proceeds to head west and north east. I don't know if there is enough traffic to prevent its use for a commuter rail though.
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Old 02-07-2010, 01:38 PM
 
115 posts, read 292,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTaxedInNY View Post

South Union is a useless road that runs next to the inner loop, what is the benefit of having a rail there? There is nothing there anyone would want to go to.
And the rail system behind University is a normal route for CSX and I believe Amtrak. That is the rail that loops around with the inner loop on the north side then proceeds to head west and north east. I don't know if there is enough traffic to prevent its use for a commuter rail though.
Are you serious? South Union would provide access to Monroe Ave, East Avenue at Alexander, it is adjoining to Court St, Broad street as well as Park avenue nearby. The fact that it is perceived as "useless" is exactly why it will be better suited to another use such as this. Clearly the entire system wouldn't consist of only the S.union portion, but this would serve as a means to prevent congestion while still accomplishing direct access to certain areas of interest. Portland seems to accomplish this in clever ways through it's downtown and I think any system should seriously take a cue from them. Union acts as a perfect uniting track to connect areas across Downtown.

Here is a map I drew up to better explain how Union could be utilized, using only One way streets and Wide streets such as Broad street (named such because it once accommodated trolley and carriages) and Main street.

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Old 02-07-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 23,281,069 times
Reputation: 4515
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTaxedInNY View Post
Thanks, I'm curious to see what you come up with. All I hope for is that whatever you propose impedes on auto traffic very, very little. If it doesn't, I personally don't want to see any rail period. In a tiny city like Rochester, auto traffic should never be sacrificed for anything but a bus.


A) please stop mentioning DC in any conversation related to Rochester. They are completely different entities and share nothing in common other than having people, buildings, and roads.
B) I don't know if you've noticed any busses recently that run within Rochester, but they are far from running at capacity. Every bus I see is maybe half filled at the most.

I highly, highly doubt people are going to give up their cars in favor of riding some sort of bus or rail in to the city. I work so I can afford, among other things, my $350/month car payment, and there is no way I'm going to not drive my car every day if I'm paying for it. Couple that with being able to do what I need/want to do when I have my car, and there is even less reason for me to give it up. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that sentiment. In a city like Rochester, there is no legitimate reason for giving up my car. Like most people that work downtown, I live within 15 miles of the city. My drive is 7 miles and it takes me 20 mins to leave my driveway and get to my desk. That's not too shabby if you ask me, and I doubt it would get any faster with some sort of rail. Even if I wanted to utilize a rail, I'd still need to take a bus or drive my car to the nearest stop and then wait for it to come. Then I'd have to pay to use it. Why do all that when I can just use my car and pay a small fee for parking if necessary?


South Union is a useless road that runs next to the inner loop, what is the benefit of having a rail there? There is nothing there anyone would want to go to.
And the rail system behind University is a normal route for CSX and I believe Amtrak. That is the rail that loops around with the inner loop on the north side then proceeds to head west and north east. I don't know if there is enough traffic to prevent its use for a commuter rail though.
They said the same thing about the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail here in the NJ Gold Coast , they said that ppl would be too lazy to use the system or walk a few blocks and use it , not only has that been proven wrong. But i know alot of ppl who use it for less then a mile journeys since its faster and cheaper sometimes. At a few stations there is a bottleneck for ppl waiting to get a ticket or wait for the train, in a few years the system will hit its max Capacity 100,000 ppl. To combat this Jersey City & Union City might build a criss-cross network of Streetcars and light rail routes. The problem outside the NE Coastal areas is ppl aren't used to New Transit ideas and dismiss it as a waste of money and bad investment , but thats not true , fortunately those ppl are disappearing or changing there minds. I have run into a few , most of them think its a better investment to widen a freeway or pave over a forest or drill for oil on protected land. You have to open minded when it comes to transit , and yes i did compare DC with Rochester , i wasn't comparing Population sizes but transit types you can look at. A shared space isn't as bad as you think , look at Portland , Dallas , Jersey City , Philly , Baltimore , and Boston for shared space examples , drivers usually adjust quickly. Cross-Traffic might have some problems but those are small and happen with an Traffic Pattern change. Gas is expecting to get more expensive , even if we drill here , that would be only a 10 year supply. I suggest to anyone who has doubts about a new line or system , visit one of those cities i just mentioned, and ask how ppl feel about the line.

~Corey
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:12 PM
 
115 posts, read 292,357 times
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Buses are worse than street cars in every way and are not a barometer for transit. I urge anyone thinking Buses and Street Cars to be interchangeable to view the video on the last page and to do a little research.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Rochester NY (western NY)
1,021 posts, read 1,607,753 times
Reputation: 2310
I can barely believe I'm actually reading all of this.
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