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Old 01-21-2012, 11:13 PM
 
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Has anyone ever used this in their septic system? If so, what were your results?

Septic Tank - Septic System - Septic Tank System
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:10 AM
 
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Sounds like another violation of the laws of thermodynamics. Septic tanks are supposed to retain solids - that's what they do. Leach fields are supposed to have a biomat - it's the biolife in the mat that removes the pathogens from wastewater. Most additives just claim to remove the solids from the septic tank - into the leach field where they are more expensive to remove. Plugging from an excessive biomat is a sign of the septic tank not retaining solids (from being undersized or otherwise dysfunctional) or the leach field being undersized or mis-designed. This one claims to kill the biomat too. Let's say it actually does that, then you're spreading the waste products further and wider until the biomat reestablishes itself further out. If this stuff is actually effective at increasing the effective size of a leach field let the NSF approve it first. Otherwise it's snake oil. This may be helpful: Water Quality Information for Consumers | Cornell University
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
Sounds like another violation of the laws of thermodynamics. Septic tanks are supposed to retain solids - that's what they do. Leach fields are supposed to have a biomat - it's the biolife in the mat that removes the pathogens from wastewater.
That is not true.

There are TWO different types of septic systems:
1 - Anaerobic (no oxygen) - sometimes called conventional
2 - Aerobic (oxygen) - sometimes called engineered

Read up on them online but basically the 2nd system produces a 100x cleaner effluent, therefore there is no need for the "biomat". Plus the biomat in system#1 eventually will clog the drainfield and the leachfield will fail. System# 2 removes the pathogens from the wastewater PRIOR to entering the leachfield. An aerobic septic system is a much more efficient system. In system#2 you can actually use the effluent to water plants, because it is that clean.

Here is a link:

Septic Tank Aerator, Septic Problems, Septic Repair, Septic Maintenance, Drainfield Repair, Septic Tank Diffuser
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:49 PM
 
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I'm not sure what post #3 has to do with posts #1 or #2.

I certainly agree that if one has an aerobic wastewater treatment plant then the dispersal area downstream of it has less of a treatment role, and that there is confusion with the word "septic" referring either to onsite wastewater treatment systems generally, or specifically to systems that function anoxically (or at least without specific means of creating aerobic conditions).

I will admit I never heard of an aeration retrofit to an existing septic tank before, systems such as Welcome to Cromaglass Corporation | Cromaglass or Orenco Systems, Inc. Residential Onsite Wastewater Systems rely not only on air, but also on a means of separating the resultant biomass from the effluent, otherwise the dispersal area would clog many times faster. Typically the old septic tank would be replaced with a new tank and treatment pod, again because more is needed in such a system than just the air itself.

An aerobic treatment system requires more electricity to run, does not eliminate the need for solids removal, and I suspect in most jurisdictions would require specific permitting. Where I am in Pennsylvania, I very much doubt such a gizmo would be able to be installed legally.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
I will admit I never heard of an aeration retrofit to an existing septic tank before, systems such as Welcome to Cromaglass Corporation | Cromaglass or Orenco Systems, Inc. Residential Onsite Wastewater Systems rely not only on air, but also on a means of separating the resultant biomass from the effluent, otherwise the dispersal area would clog many times faster. Typically the old septic tank would be replaced with a new tank and treatment pod, again because more is needed in such a system than just the air itself.

An aerobic treatment system requires more electricity to run, does not eliminate the need for solids removal, and I suspect in most jurisdictions would require specific permitting. Where I am in Pennsylvania, I very much doubt such a gizmo would be able to be installed legally.
In a conventional/Anaerobic system, it takes a LONG and SLOW process to breakdown the matter, in reality it never really completely breaks down. Therefore the effluent is never clean and has debris in it which therefore causes the BioMat to form in the fields and lines.

Long story short, in a conventional/anaerobic system, 99.9% of failures are due to the leach field getting clogged and the BioMat clogging the lines and leaching. The BioMat becomes the enemy over time as it gets to large and stops the leaching process.

The aerator addition to a conventional system can save it from complete shutdown by introducing oxygen and converting it to an aerobic system. The oxygen will break down the BioMat and sludge in the tank.

As far as electricity, the pump runs 24/7 buy only uses around $5 a month in electricity due to its efficient design. I run 2 air pumps on my outdoor pond 24/7 and it costs me $9 a month to do so.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:50 PM
 
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The aerobic system will stimulate growth, the question is where does that growth go.

In a leach field that is big enough the biomat will not get "big" enough to plug the system, septic tank effluent still is dirty stuff which is why it shouldn't go right to the roadside ditch.

But inside a tank a concentration will have nowhere to go but the outlet, and therefore plug the field faster, unless there is some mechanism to separate the aerobically stimulated growth from the water being treated. The Cromaglass approaches this by batch pumping (more complicated than just blowing air in the tank), the Orenco by providing an attached growth substrate for the aerobic growth (either the recirculating sand filter, or the AdvanTex textile medium).

The biomat in a properly sited and sized leach field is as close to a "free lunch" as you can get in wastewater treatment, as the aerobic treatment occurs within oxygenated soil without mechanical intervention. When such conditions are not possible the aerobic treatment unit is useful but requires a higher level of attention.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
The aerobic system will stimulate growth, the question is where does that growth go.
The bacteria eats the "growth" or waste inside of the tank. The bacteria reside there until they die off or others replace them. The growth doesn't go anywhere, it is eaten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
In a leach field that is big enough the biomat will not get "big" enough to plug the system, septic tank effluent still is dirty stuff which is why it shouldn't go right to the roadside ditch.
Every leach field in a conventional/anaerobic system has a lifespan and will go bad because of the Biomat. It is usually 20-30 years +/- depending on how dirty the effluent was. At that point the field has to either be moved or maybe an attempted clean out but the latter usually does not work to well.

In an engineered/aerobic system the leach field's lifespan is usually 40-50 years, sometimes even longer because there is little to no Biomat. The effluent in an aerobic system is so clean that it can be used to water plants/landscape. That is why they use engineered/aerobic systems in poor soil areas, as the effluent is clean enough that very little peculation is really needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
the Orenco by providing an attached growth substrate for the aerobic growth (either the recirculating sand filter, or the AdvanTex textile medium).

The biomat in a properly sited and sized leach field is as close to a "free lunch" as you can get in wastewater treatment, as the aerobic treatment occurs within oxygenated soil without mechanical intervention. When such conditions are not possible the aerobic treatment unit is useful but requires a higher level of attention.
The Orenco setup is a great system and while not "officially" an aerobic system (as it does not introduce air via an air pump), by circulating the effluent through the media, it creates oxygen and there is an aerobic effect, like you mentioned.

The cleaner the effluent going into the leach field, the longer the leach field will last and have fewer problems. Conventional/anaerobic systems fall short in this category. Engineered/aerobic systems excel in having cleaner effluent entering the leach fields. This is done by introducing oxygen via air pump or through circulation (like the Orenco).

This brings up FULL CIRCLE back to my OP. Oxygenating the effluent in a conventional/anaerobic system WILL help create a aerobic system that will help the system run more efficiently and clean the effluent.
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:12 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DellNec View Post

The Orenco setup is a great system and while not "officially" an aerobic system (as it does not introduce air via an air pump), by circulating the effluent through the media, it creates oxygen and there is an aerobic effect, like you mentioned.

The cleaner the effluent going into the leach field, the longer the leach field will last and have fewer problems. Conventional/anaerobic systems fall short in this category. Engineered/aerobic systems excel in having cleaner effluent entering the leach fields. This is done by introducing oxygen via air pump or through circulation (like the Orenco).

This brings up FULL CIRCLE back to my OP. Oxygenating the effluent in a conventional/anaerobic system WILL help create a aerobic system that will help the system run more efficiently and clean the effluent.
So in other words you posted a "question" as a deceitful way to promote this system. You don't have a question about the system, you are here promoting this system... let me guess, you either install them or sell them.

For someone asking if anyone had used the system in question, you seem to have all the answers already and are really pushing this one particular system.

I smell an advertising troll here.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DellNec View Post
The bacteria eats the "growth" or waste inside of the tank. The bacteria reside there until they die off or others replace them. The growth doesn't go anywhere, it is eaten.

* * *

Every leach field in a conventional/anaerobic system has a lifespan and will go bad because of the Biomat. It is usually 20-30 years +/- depending on how dirty the effluent was. At that point the field has to either be moved or maybe an attempted clean out but the latter usually does not work to well.
These statements can't both be true.

Endogenous respiration (i.e. "bacteria eating itself") is a long and slow process, and if it is to occur in the tank vs. in the leach field the tank would have to be much larger than normal (on the order of 30 days minimum hydraulic retention time, 400 gpd x 30 days = 12,000 gal minimum free liquid capacity for a single house, let's call that a 15,000 gallon tank) - and the bigger the tank the bigger the blower to aerate it in a suspended growth medium.

It still requires a settle phase to separate clarified effluent from the retained solids (even under the best of circumstances there remains indigestible ash).
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bydand View Post
So in other words you posted a "question" as a deceitful way to promote this system. You don't have a question about the system, you are here promoting this system... let me guess, you either install them or sell them.

For someone asking if anyone had used the system in question, you seem to have all the answers already and are really pushing this one particular system.

I smell an advertising troll here.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

I already knew that aerobic systems are 100x better than anaerobic systems. My question was if someone had used this particular product to make their anaerobic system to a semi-aerobic system, and how it turned out in the end.
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