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Old 09-21-2012, 12:47 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,925,002 times
Reputation: 3083

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Farmers and ranchers wanted the wildlife gone. It was hunters who started the conservation movement and saved these species from going entirely extinct. Theodore Roosevelt was one of the best presidents we ever had in terms of conservation work, and he was probably the most avid hunter of all our presidents. Every year so many animals are going to die out of a population in any given area because of a lack of food, etc., and the idea behind game management is to have hunters take no more than that number. Not enough are taken here and I see starved, frozen deer every winter in the woods here. I think protecting the wolves out West after they'd met the recovery goals from any and all hunting, essentially doomed the restoration of several species to the Eastern states. Reintroducing wolves, cougars, marten, even caribou and elk, is no longer taken seriously in my state and neighboring states. Everyone's afraid of what happened out West with the wolves.

The most dangerous people to our wildlife are probably the suburbanites moving further and further into the country building mcmansions and who see the wildlife as mere pests eating their landscaping.
Reintroducing wolves into their natural habitat can only be beneficial as it balances out the numbers of deer and other species that have exploded in numbers due to lack of natural predation. The idea of "game management" and "harvesting" is one that benefits the people who love the blood sport. If you stop killing the predators and let them recover in numbers - all other species we now play God with by "managing their numbers" will return to their natural equilibrium. A few studies have been done in Yellowstone where wolves were reintroduced and not only has the number of deer, elk etc. gone back to natural levels (something that pisses off the hunters immensely) but the whole look of the place has changed with all the shrubs and woods returning back to where they were overgrazed by elk. With those shrubs and woods other animals like birds and various mammals have returned too. Mother Nature is great at repairing itself as soon as we get out of the way.

Unfortunately the hunting lobby is huge and behind them the gun industry that sells guns and other toys to the hunters. Together with the ranchers they lobby to kill whatever is left of the (reintroduced) predators.

OD
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Piedmont, OK
96 posts, read 148,223 times
Reputation: 86
I have signs out on my land: NO HUNTING and NO TRESPASSING. Had a big problem with it when we first moved from the city because we are off the road aways and I guess the previous owner didn't care. We also have the land only partially fenced. Have a spring-fed creek that wildlife do frequent which I enjoy watching very much. The previous owner (who reminds me a little of TexasHorseLady on here) gave us the best advice when we moved out here: 1) don't fence the creek because you will miss out on the beautiful wildlife that visit it, 2) make friends with your neighbors, they will show up a few days after you move in, be nice to them, get to know them, they can be your friend or your enemy, and 3) keep the kids inside during hunting season. I have followed her wealth of wisdom and we couldn't be happier. Truly we have wonderful neighbors and don't have the same problems in small OK towns that I have seen, but OK is not as populated as some other states so that might be why. We love it out in rural Oklahoma. No need to look down on others because they grew up in a small town vs. big city. It is all about being open-minded and kind to your neighbors. If you aren't looking down on them, they won't look down on you for being "high-fallootin'" LOL

Last edited by casey7083; 09-21-2012 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:02 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,925,002 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey7083 View Post
3) keep the kids inside during hunting season. I have followed her wealth of wisdom and we couldn't be happier.
I wonder if you let your kids outside by accident how happy you would be if something happened to them on YOUR land....
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: The Woods
17,088 posts, read 22,605,396 times
Reputation: 9373
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Reintroducing wolves into their natural habitat can only be beneficial as it balances out the numbers of deer and other species that have exploded in numbers due to lack of natural predation. The idea of "game management" and "harvesting" is one that benefits the people who love the blood sport. If you stop killing the predators and let them recover in numbers - all other species we now play God with by "managing their numbers" will return to their natural equilibrium. A few studies have been done in Yellowstone where wolves were reintroduced and not only has the number of deer, elk etc. gone back to natural levels (something that pisses off the hunters immensely) but the whole look of the place has changed with all the shrubs and woods returning back to where they were overgrazed by elk. With those shrubs and woods other animals like birds and various mammals have returned too. Mother Nature is great at repairing itself as soon as we get out of the way.

Unfortunately the hunting lobby is huge and behind them the gun industry that sells guns and other toys to the hunters. Together with the ranchers they lobby to kill whatever is left of the (reintroduced) predators.

OD
Humans are a part of the food chain and have been for tens of thousands of years. Modern humans have simply forgotten their place as hunters and gatherers. Humans were one of the checks on the wolf population. It wasn't really possible though until recently for humans to drive the wolves to extinction or extirpation. The wolves are vital to a healthy ecosystem out there and here in the East as well, but they can overpopulate as any other species will without something that hunts them.

Nature will eventually sort of balance itself through boom and bust cycles, but I think it's a lot easier on the animals to die of a gunshot than starvation, freezing and disease. The population is healthier when it's not starving, diseased, etc., which overpopulation causes. The wolves and cougars won't keep up with the prey species during boom years, and by the time the wolves and cougars increase in numbers, the prey is dying of disease and starvation, leaving the predators overpopulated. Around here all we have are the coyotes, and you can tell when they're overpopulated when they're full of mange and nothing but skin and bones.

Moreover, humans are omnivores and will always eat some meat. Taking wild game in a sustainable manner will leave a population of the prey species. Clearing that land to raise beef or pigs or chickens will destroy the habitat of multiple species of wildlife and native plants. I won't deny there are scum who kill animals and leave them rotting for sport. I've reported some local slobs to the wardens when I found deer killed with just the antlers and backstraps cut off, and I once found an otter carcass dumped (otter carcasses must be turned into the game warden after the pelt is tagged with the CITES tag here, so it was clear evidence of poaching). Still, when you look at the health of the animal populations hunting that's managed can be quite beneficial.

Reintroducing all the natives species here in Northern New England would be beneficial. The elk and caribou can't return until the wolves and cougars control the deer. The caribou reintroduction in Maine failed because of a parasitic problem the deer spread to them. The wolves and cougars once kept the deer in check there. Wolverines would help too though they were never common here. Martens will cut the nuissance problems down with the red squirrels. But even with all these species back, humans will always have a role. This ecosystem evolved with a human presence. The problem is when the Western ideas on commerce, development, agriculture and then industry arrived it threw everything out of balance with too many people and too much development and an industrial and capitalistic attitude towards land and wildlife.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Rolla, Phelps County, Ozarks, Missouri
1,069 posts, read 2,255,120 times
Reputation: 1259
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Why take photos of a bloody buck with the horns in the air if you are catching it for food? If it is food you would quietly do the deed and eat the thing for the rest of the year. Most people today hunt for pleasure. There are thousands of of foods and meats thrown away daily because nobody bought them.

OD
Lots of hunters here in southern Missouri and every single one of the locals I know hunt for the meat, whether it is deer, turkey, rabbit, squirrel, or the pelts, if it is raccoon or beaver. Even though they hunt for the meat, they also like to take pictures and share them with their friends at work or even submit the photos to the local paper. I don't see a problem with that.

The problem-causers are the city slickers who drive down here from St. Louis to drink and shoot and get a rack to take home. They may leave a rotting carcass behind. Hopefully that carcass won't be a prized bull or horse due to the slicker's ignorance.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:40 PM
 
4,135 posts, read 9,537,777 times
Reputation: 2689
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey7083 View Post
I have signs out on my land: NO HUNTING and NO TRESPASSING. Had a big problem with it when we first moved from the city because we are off the road aways and I guess the previous owner didn't care. We also have the land only partially fenced. Have a spring-fed creek that wildlife do frequent which I enjoy watching very much. The previous owner (who reminds me a little of TexasHorseLady on here) gave us the best advice when we moved out here: 1) don't fence the creek because you will miss out on the beautiful wildlife that visit it, 2) make friends with your neighbors, they will show up a few days after you move in, be nice to them, get to know them, they can be your friend or your enemy, and 3) keep the kids inside during hunting season. I have followed her wealth of wisdom and we couldn't be happier. Truly we have wonderful neighbors and don't have the same problems in small OK towns that I have seen, but OK is not as populated as some other states so that might be why. We love it out in rural Oklahoma. No need to look down on others because they grew up in a small town vs. big city. It is all about being open-minded and kind to your neighbors. If you aren't looking down on them, they won't look down on you for being "high-fallootin'" LOL
Sounds like the lady who sold you your house could have been the one who sold us ours. We never fenced any of the acreage. We constantly have deer and turkey at the creek and (not often anymore) pheasant and fox. (We now have coyotes, so we figure that is partly the reason). The creek hasn't been fenced in the 40+ years we have owned the place. Our girls stayed in during hunting season unless they absolutely had to go in the close yard ( all mowed) -- and they had blaze orange caps. Every neighbor is a friend (I think maybe 5 families on this long road have moved in the past 40 years unless the person died and the family sold the house.) Retired, w/our girls have moved out long ago; we won't ever move out. Best advice to people going to areas where it is "beyond suburbia"? Get involved in your town and with your neighbors and follow their lead... they were there first and will not be nasty if you show you are really willing to be part of the place. (here, that also means involved in the church).
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:36 PM
 
2,569 posts, read 2,608,430 times
Reputation: 4409
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
I guess the wolves all shot themselves around United States. So did the buffalo. Eagles too (they put themselves on the endangered list).

Ranchers are number one reason why wolves are gone (cattle).

I have no beef with someone shooting an elk or deer to feed their family once or twice a year. Come to Texas, native wildlife is not enough, the bigger business is shooting exotics on various game ranches around the state, it's a blooming business of blood sport and cruelty.

You shoot animals 'cause you love 'em? What makes your dog so different than the deer?

Why take photos of a bloody buck with the horns in the air if you are catching it for food? If it is food you would quietly do the deed and eat the thing for the rest of the year. Most people today hunt for pleasure. There are thousands of of foods and meats thrown away daily because nobody bought them.

Wyoming has precious few wolves after years of trying to protect them and raise their numbers. Open season, controlled season, they are as good as gone.

OD
We have never been without wolves in the western states. If you want to be informed, read the GSO papers on the hearings about wolves, pre-introduction of the non-native species of Canadian grays. The pro-wolf lobbyists never argued there were NO wolves. Apparently just not enough. One would actually have to spend time and learn the area and nature of wolves to observe them, unless so many more were introduced. And, then, there's was the potential for huge profits from marketing the cause.

I can't answer why people take photos of what they shot. I don't. Nor do any people I know. Must be a tourist thing. And, yes, we do eat wild game. And, yes, we/I do provide for their well-being year round. And, I respect all animals and the act of taking one for nutrition invokes a humity that you most likely don't understand.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:49 PM
 
3,463 posts, read 4,638,998 times
Reputation: 7144
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
IWhat I've always been used to in VT small towns outside of the rich touristy towns is quite a mix of often arrogant outsiders escaping the city and pretty normal rural people.
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People who move to a place need to know what they're getting into and need to respect the local culture, is what it boils down to. If you want to hike here during deer season, expect to hear gunshots and for your own good wear bright orange because there's idiots in any group incl. hunters. Don't move to Warren's Gore, Vermont and expect sidewalks and streetlights.
After my years in Vermont, I would say it was an 'unfriendly' state. Not out-and-out mean like Florida, but that people are not going to be beating your door down with a pie when you move in or go out of their way to get to know you. But, I didnt move to VT to make friends, so all was good

In PA I was on a committee to fight the developers assault of Amish towns. For a cheap price for a plot of land and 'gift' to the commissioners, people were willing to severely inconvenience or destroy a way of life for another group of people. I could never grasp the theory of moving 40 miles away from where you work and then support putting a Dunkin Donuts in against the long-term locals objections. Selfishness and apathy at it absolute worst. I am glad there are still towns who DONT want interlopers and make it known they dont. Sucks if you are a traveller, but as history has shown, when a developer decides to make your area better, everyone suffers and a way of life is gone.
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:26 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
7,962 posts, read 9,370,947 times
Reputation: 11653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
I have scat from all sorts of animals in my "yard". So what?

I wish I could attract more coyotes. There are Deer Mice all over the place including my vehicles. I have live traps in each vehicle and rarely go for more than a couple days without catching one or more. But at least there aren't any in the house.
What you really want in your yard to get rid of deer mice is weasels (provided you don't have chickens). That's one of their main food sources and they actually can get into burrows. I don't know if there is a way to attract them in or not but it could help. Be careful if you find deer mouse droppings. I guess they are the biggest carriers of hantavirus.
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Old 09-22-2012, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,783 posts, read 11,265,215 times
Reputation: 19766
Quote:
Originally Posted by WyoEagle View Post
What you really want in your yard to get rid of deer mice is weasels (provided you don't have chickens). That's one of their main food sources and they actually can get into burrows. I don't know if there is a way to attract them in or not but it could help. Be careful if you find deer mouse droppings. I guess they are the biggest carriers of hantavirus.
I know about hantavirus and have thought about it. I wonder if weasels would or could live here. I'm about 1/4 mile from a riparian community but my property is a mixture of prairie grass and sagebrush.
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