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Old 10-16-2012, 08:39 AM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,973,895 times
Reputation: 29122

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
My friend, we are discussing here who moves to rural areas and why. Doesn't mean I am like that, I am just sharing my experiences of what is being sold to city folks and how it is advertised (by your fellow local developer family that owns half the small town). And yes, moving to a rural place can end up in a very rough experience - depending on where you moved you can have all of the bad stuff I said and worse. You can also be perfectly fine and everything can be great, from neighbors to weather to everything else.

A lot of rural areas in United states are populated with trash rednecks whose only goal in life after you move in will be to show you how redneck they can be. This will include trashing your property, riding ATVs on it, dumping garbage next to it, being loud and obnoxious and being a general nuisance.

You can also end up in a place where your neighbors are 4th generation german farmers whose every inch of their fields looks amazing, clean, they are quiet and welcoming and being around them is just a joy. In my opinion, the latter is rarer than the former. Your mileage might vary.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that a rural place is like a European village where farmers are educated and you can hear Beethoven out of the farmer's window. Heck, a lot of people make the mistake that rural people farm and ranch! (only 2.5% of US population farms). Not in United States. Our culture is completely different. A lot of people here are surprised that a lot of tiny towns across the country have "projects" and are drowning in drugs (meth) and crime. Go to a small mountain town in NC with population 850 - has a crime/drug problem proportional to a large city. Similar in NM, MO, FL or really anywhere across the country.

OD
Ya know, I'll bet that if you and tried real hard you could almost, almost I say, come up with some gross generalizations, misapprehensions and the downright falsehoods regarding rural populations. I will say again that it's pretty obvious you be either never lived in rural America or failed at it horribly due to bad choices on your part. It begs the question why you bother to participate in this forum in the first place. What do you have to gain by spreading your negative outlook? What value are you bringing to the discussion?
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:40 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,927,056 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
I fully agree. Living in Helena Montana for 14 years showed me the type all too well.
Luckily Montana is much more brutal in it's weather than New Mexico taking all but the hardiest transplants out of state within a couple of winters.

Sadly you have the ultra wealthy that carve up the land and put a million dollar plus home on their 100 acres and think they are really rural. LOL!!

This does nothing but raise the property taxes of those that are indigenous to the immediate area, thus forcing them off the land that had been in their family for generations.

Long live the drunk, redneck SUV riding local for he/she does more in keeping their areas clean of the wealthy than anything else barring the weather,
Somehow you must think you are entitled to your land. Land in this country is a commodity. It has been treated like a commodity for a lot of decades and it is just another vehicle to make money, like stocks or bonds or any other tradable...well...commodity. Sorry to break it to you. I don't like it either but when living in capitalism, everything is for sale.

Again, your lovely local neighbor (who was there for generations) sold his land and someone bought it. What they do with the land is their business and if they choose to put a McMansion on it (I don't like it either), so be it, it is a free country. If there is a sufficient number of them moving into the area, the locals eyes bubble up with joy since that means selling land for insane prices, prices they would have never gotten before they got "discovered", even for what they know is sometimes worthless land. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Finally, I see this "transfer of ownership" as a good thing. It actually allows people who never had the opportunity - to own rural land. Every time I go to some nice place, it is 60,000 acre ranches surrounding it and maybe I want to live there. What makes you so special? Because your ancestors came first?

Maybe I don't agree with the way local ranchers "steward" the land. Maybe I don't think grazing cattle on eco-sensitive land and shooting every single predator to extinction is a great idea. Maybe I think keeping a cow that can barely survive on a 100acres of land is stupid. Maybe I don't like the sound of hunting and legally sanctioned animal mass murder but I still want to enjoy Nature. What makes your way of life so much better?

I will give an example: in SW Texas the National Park Service wanted to open another national park (other than Big Bend), four million acres in size. Talk about a great idea! Preserve the land for everyone (EVERYONE, not just you and your daddy) to use. But nope. Local ranchers got pissed off and they booted NPS out. They were going to use the "conservation easement" idea to preserve the land (get a tax break for not developing). After all the brouhaha and patting each other on the back for booting NPS out of town was done, you know how many acres were "conserved"? Only 60,000. 60,000 vs 4 million that the national park was going to save. This area (and area towards NM) is now a site of a ranch where New York dumps its toxic sludge (on private land (someone (local?) is making money on it)), it was also surveyed for nuclear waste disposal and who knows what else.

Who wins in the end?

You can't tell people what to build and how to live. If they want their big houses and Starbucks and there is enough of them to get it, they will. You (or I) may not like it, but it will happen.

OD

Last edited by ognend; 10-16-2012 at 08:53 AM..
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:57 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,927,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Ya know, I'll bet that if you and tried real hard you could almost, almost I say, come up with some gross generalizations, misapprehensions and the downright falsehoods regarding rural populations. I will say again that it's pretty obvious you be either never lived in rural America or failed at it horribly due to bad choices on your part. It begs the question why you bother to participate in this forum in the first place. What do you have to gain by spreading your negative outlook? What value are you bringing to the discussion?
I bring the value of warning to everyone who thinks that rural areas are all birds chirping and deer playing in your backyard while your wonderful neighbor is baking you a pie for lunch.
You may choose to shoot the messenger all you want but the fact remains people need to open their eyes. I said "you can either run into this (good) or you can run into that (bad) and anything in between, so open your eyes".

This particular thread is "we don't want no high-falootin' city-folk around here" - I am just trying to tell you why things are the way they are and that it is not (all) city-folk fault, there are other issues at play such as money, developers, advertising, different values about treating Mother Nature, completely different education levels and sizes of bank accounts etc.

OD
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:08 AM
 
863 posts, read 1,083,313 times
Reputation: 827
Local natives are naturally biased against the well heeled newbie transplants changing the landscape, crowding the roads and pushing property values beyond reach. Why wouldn't they? For me, it comes down to day to day interaction and demonstrating respect and love for the area- as we all have that in common.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,789 posts, read 11,278,214 times
Reputation: 19777
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Sadly you have the ultra wealthy that carve up the land and put a million dollar plus home on their 100 acres and think they are really rural. LOL!!
That's living the good life. They are really rural and they're probably far more aware of it than The Great Unwashed. Do you think people are better because they can't get ahead? Wealthy people are simply better educated and more intelligent, and they don't get food stamps. They make the best neighbors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Long live the drunk, redneck SUV riding local for he/she does more in keeping their areas clean of the wealthy than anything else barring the weather
Maybe that's the dream of people in Allentown, Pennsylvania but where I live we like prosperous and educated people as neighbors. Let the drunken, drug using, uneducated and impoverished detritus move to the city slums. They'd be a far better fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
A lot of rural areas in United states are populated with trash rednecks whose only goal in life after you move in will be to show you how redneck they can be. This will include trashing your property, riding ATVs on it, dumping garbage next to it, being loud and obnoxious and being a general nuisance.

You can also end up in a place where your neighbors are 4th generation german farmers whose every inch of their fields looks amazing, clean, they are quiet and welcoming and being around them is just a joy. In my opinion, the latter is rarer than the former. Your mileage might vary.

OD
That's what we have here. Germans are the largest ethnic group in Wyoming and they are good folks. No wonder it's so good here. We have many Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans as well. Southwestern Wyoming has many Italian ranchers; they've worked hard and gotten rich. They're all good folks.

Wyoming has the sixth highest per capita income of the states and that only includes wages and salaries. Who knows what investment income is?

Oh yes, choral singing is very popular in Wyoming high schools and we have state competitions. They're not singing hippity-hop or whatever it's called. We also have community groups and an excellent program at the University of Wyoming. Casper, a city of fifty thousand, supports an opera company.

Cody, a city of fewer than ten thousand souls, has the largest museum between Minneapolis and Seattle including the world's largest private gun collection. Wyoming people have given them tens of millions.

People who trash others' property here go to jail or prison.

OD, don't you think it's time you lived with your fellows.
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Old 10-16-2012, 02:00 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,927,056 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
That's living the good life. They are really rural and they're probably far more aware of it than The Great Unwashed. Do you think people are better because they can't get ahead? Wealthy people are simply better educated and more intelligent, and they don't get food stamps. They make the best neighbors.



Maybe that's the dream of people in Allentown, Pennsylvania but where I live we like prosperous and educated people as neighbors. Let the drunken, drug using, uneducated and impoverished detritus move to the city slums. They'd be a far better fit.



That's what we have here. Germans are the largest ethnic group in Wyoming and they are good folks. No wonder it's so good here. We have many Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans as well. Southwestern Wyoming has many Italian ranchers; they've worked hard and gotten rich. They're all good folks.

Wyoming has the sixth highest per capita income of the states and that only includes wages and salaries. Who knows what investment income is?

Oh yes, choral singing is very popular in Wyoming high schools and we have state competitions. They're not singing hippity-hop or whatever it's called. We also have community groups and an excellent program at the University of Wyoming. Casper, a city of fifty thousand, supports an opera company.

Cody, a city of fewer than ten thousand souls, has the largest museum between Minneapolis and Seattle including the world's largest private gun collection. Wyoming people have given them tens of millions.

People who trash others' property here go to jail or prison.

OD, don't you think it's time you lived with your fellows.
Happy, by Golly, I think it is. You have me convinced, I am going to start looking. I did briefly look around Wind River Valley (since this is where we went horseback riding and camping) and loved the area (town of Dubois). Any other suggestions/areas? Wife and I are well educated, quiet and like to ride our horses for days on end.

OD
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:16 PM
 
Location: The Woods
17,098 posts, read 22,617,206 times
Reputation: 9375
There's a wealthy guy down the road who likes to race and rev the engine of his fancy convertible up and down the road, sometimes at night. I don't think stupidity is limited to the non-wealthy. Enough of the wealthy merely inherited their wealth rather than earning it, and aren't the brightest bulbs around. Wealth and education are not synonymous with each other really.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
2,311 posts, read 3,667,981 times
Reputation: 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
That's living the good life. They are really rural and they're probably far more aware of it than The Great Unwashed. Do you think people are better because they can't get ahead? Wealthy people are simply better educated and more intelligent, and they don't get food stamps. They make the best neighbors.



Maybe that's the dream of people in Allentown, Pennsylvania but where I live we like prosperous and educated people as neighbors. Let the drunken, drug using, uneducated and impoverished detritus move to the city slums. They'd be a far better fit.
No, if you would have read where I lived and where I was talking about you would realize that I'm talking about Helena, Montana.

Speaking of Montana, Kalispell is now a waist land of Starbucks, premium outlet stores and Mc Mansions thanks to the out of state crowd that moved in, carved it up, put up walls and gates and destroyed it for thousands of local residents that had been on their land for generations.

Now it's gone...forever.


A more pronounced disgusting example of this sort of money takeover is Jackson WY.
Jackson is a victim of scenic beauty thus it was left vulnerable to the whims of the elite that came, saw and conquered by opening their checkbooks.

To the north of Yellowstone we have the Yellowstone club that had requirements of x million of dollars prior to being allowed to build within it's protected borders.

To the north of that we have Bozeman, MT.

Another victim of the beauty that it's located in.

There are two types of residents that live in and around Bozeman, the have's and have not's.

Any semblance of the middle class is found up to 30 miles west off of I-90 and even as far north as Townsend.

These people make good incomes yet can't afford to live closer to Bozeman due to the cost of living.

You cannot agrgue with me the areas in which I speak. After living in Helena Montana for 14 years and traveling in a sales territory I had my ear to the common man and my eyes on the entire region.


You know how stupid it sounds when you say """ That must be a dream of the people of Allentown, PA ""
Pennsylvania has beauty but lets get this straight, for the most part PA is not a destination area like Montana and Wyoming are.

We are not a magnet for part time wealthy vacation and trophy homes.
Multi generation German families like you speak of living in Wyoming are a staple in Pennsylvania.
I am a descendant a Pennsylvania Duch family that resided in south central PA in Lancaster County.
I'm not going to reveal my last name here but I can assure you it's quite Germanic.

People of PA are generally static in their living situation which is to say they don't move from the state very often.

When you see someone move nearby it's usually from inside the state in which they came not from out of state in order to fulfill a lifelong dream and fantasy of living in extreme beauty of Montana or Wyoming.

The needs and culture of the east where I now reside are so far removed and different than the intermountain west that it's like visiting two different planets.

Those rednecks that I hailed as your savour along with extreme and brutal winter weather do you a favor everyday that you live out there.

They effectively work at population control of those who's bank accounts are larger than the intellect needed in order to successfully survive in these states.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,789 posts, read 11,278,214 times
Reputation: 19777
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
No, if you would have read where I lived and where I was talking about you would realize that I'm talking about Helena, Montana.
I read what you wrote; but you don't live in Helena either because you didn't like it or you failed.

You seem to have trouble understanding my words so I'll spell it out. I'm one of the "haves" and proud of it.

[/quote]
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:17 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,927,056 times
Reputation: 3083
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
No, if you would have read where I lived and where I was talking about you would realize that I'm talking about Helena, Montana.

Speaking of Montana, Kalispell is now a waist land of Starbucks, premium outlet stores and Mc Mansions thanks to the out of state crowd that moved in, carved it up, put up walls and gates and destroyed it for thousands of local residents that had been on their land for generations.
Thousands of local residents? Before it was all "carved up" most of that land was gigantic ranches. In New Mexico as a consequence of land grants you have places as large as 600,000 acres! It was usually one or two families living on that kind of land, not thousand of people! Now you really have thousands living on small acreages. So, they all get a chance at enjoying the beauty, instead of a dozen families owning the local mountains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Now it's gone...forever.
The ranches that saw the introduction of cattle that needs a hundred acres per head to survive? Maybe gone. The ranchers that shot up all the local predators so that they can defend their lifestyle of keeping a cow on a hundred acres? Maybe gone. It is a part of our history but it is debatable if it is a glorious part of our history. You think it is sad it is gone? I beg to differ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
A more pronounced disgusting example of this sort of money takeover is Jackson WY.
Jackson is a victim of scenic beauty thus it was left vulnerable to the whims of the elite that came, saw and conquered by opening their checkbooks.

To the north of Yellowstone we have the Yellowstone club that had requirements of x million of dollars prior to being allowed to build within it's protected borders.

To the north of that we have Bozeman, MT.

Another victim of the beauty that it's located in.

There are two types of residents that live in and around Bozeman, the have's and have not's.

Any semblance of the middle class is found up to 30 miles west off of I-90 and even as far north as Townsend.
Middle class in these places will be hard to find because it will generally be associated with professionals which are generally associated with higher-density areas. You can be a rural doctor and be middle class but there are not many of those compared to middle and high class urban doctors. I don't know how many software engineers flock to Helena or how many financial professionals flock there or... Traditionally these "rural" towns had farmers and ranchers and some supporting infrastructure (doctors, lawyers, bankers etc.) but not enough to make it a "middle class heaven".

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
We are not a magnet for part time wealthy vacation and trophy homes.
Multi generation German families like you speak of living in Wyoming are a staple in Pennsylvania.
I am a descendant a Pennsylvania Duch family that resided in south central PA in Lancaster County.
I'm not going to reveal my last name here but I can assure you it's quite Germanic.
Even been to the rural South? or South East? or....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
People of PA are generally static in their living situation which is to say they don't move from the state very often.
That's odd. I knew a ton of people in South Florida that were from PA. In fact, South FL was flooded with people from Jersey, New York, MA and PA. Heck, one of my neighbors here in the Texas Hill country is from PA - they travel back and forth (snow birds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
The needs and culture of the east where I now reside are so far removed and different than the intermountain west that it's like visiting two different planets.
This is America where capitalism made everything bland. Welcome. We have two of each: Target vs Walmart, Home Depot vs Lowes, Hilton vs Holiday Inn, Starbucks vs nobody, Burger Kind vs McDonalds etc. etc. You cannot expect that these places will remain "virgin". In fact, this buying up of the pretty places by the rich has been happening for a century or more. Florida was bought up by New Yorkers. Wyoming and Montana and NM by the Californians. That's what happens when you put wealthy states in the same union with poor states. Of course, nobody wants to buy Alabama and Mississippi - you are welcome to move to rural Alabama or rural Florida, for example, and "preserve the feeling and way of life". Something tells me you will be out of there faster than a bat out of hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Those rednecks that I hailed as your savour along with extreme and brutal winter weather do you a favor everyday that you live out there.

They effectively work at population control of those who's bank accounts are larger than the intellect needed in order to successfully survive in these states.
I am sorry, what special intellect is needed to survive in Helena (which you mentioned)? Just another city.

Not many wealthy people move to a ranch to starve, toil behind the plow and feed the oxen at 4 am every day. Heck, I am betting not many locals do that either. Every time I went to a ranch in WY or MT or NM, the rancher was driving a $60,000 dually, had a nice home and had machinery that would put some third world countries to shame. What lifestyle do you speak of exactly?

Also, what makes you more entitled to "enjoy the land" than me? Who says how the land should be enjoyed? Maybe I don't like hunting and I don't agree with it. Just because it was done for generations does not mean it is right. There are plenty of things in this country that we did as close as 40 years back that your children would be ashamed of now.

I keep hearing this whining about the rich coming in and changing everything. If you don't like 'em, don't sell your land. When someone buys the land they will do with it as they see fit. You or I (yes, me too) may not like it BUT it is a fact of life.

And while we are on the topic of it - there is another fallacy that is constantly perpetuated - that the ranchers are the stewards of the land. Want to conserve the land? Turn it into a National park. That way it will be conserved for EVERYBODY, not just the ranchers and their children. I call BS on that.

OD
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