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Old 12-28-2012, 05:20 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
No one "shot up all the wolves and bears everywhere."

In fact, we, in Wyoming, have never been without wolves. We've always had native species here. Now we have a non-native species, too.

You can read the GSO documents from the hearings that were held. More than 1100 pages of testimony and statistics from both sides. The pro-Canadian grey wolf side never proved that there were not wolves here. But, their huge and well-funded lobby (from people who don't know the country) won.

If you donated to help introduce this invasive species, you were scammed.
Wolves were found much more south than today. They and bears were shot up together with panthers (only a 100 surviving in Florida for example) and other big cats. Combination of human invasion (habitat loss) and uncontrolled hunting has done what it has done. If we had all the predators we would not need to hunt so many deer all over the place, they would be kept in check by the predators, no? Or do you claim that all is good?

It is also true that ranchers were offered money for every calf they could prove was taken by a wolf. So far as I know, not much of that money was claimed. No?

Now that the season is open on the wolf in ID, WY and MT, let's see how many survive, if any... I guess time will tell.

If this lobby was so powerful as you speak, how come the wolf was delisted from the endangered species list and is now fair game in the western states? Or is there a more powerful lobby (hunters, gun industry, ranchers etc.)?

OD
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Old 12-28-2012, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,490 posts, read 38,407,488 times
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I'm all for protecting wolves; even had some on our land in East Texas, where, because we didn't allow hunting (still don't) on our land and they thus had a healthy supply of their own naturally occurring prey, they cohabited quite nicely with a cow-calf operation that leased the land for some years. There was a bounty on wolves at that time and they learned (not being as dumb as some people think animals area) that they would be safe in our woods as long as they minded their own business. This was not way up north; this was almost as far south as you can get and still be in the US.

You're not the only one interested in preserving wildlife, ognend. What concrete have you done to do so?
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
You're not the only one interested in preserving wildlife, ognend. What concrete have you done to do so?
I know of no one in agriculture, specifically ranching, that is out to eliminate all wolves. Or bear. Or lions. Or feral horses.

I, too, would like to know: What have you done for wildlife?

Do you feed them?
Provide water for wildlife?
Make stock tanks safe for animals who might get in and not be able to get out on their own?
Do you monitor forage on public land?
Do you correct erosion?
Do you protect migratory pathways for herbivores?

Most ranchers do.

By the way, the BLM and Forest Service both have programs for volunteers, so you could put your words into action and do something for a cause you supposedly care about. If you are physically unable to get out in the field there are other opportunities.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:51 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
I know of no one in agriculture, specifically ranching, that is out to eliminate all wolves. Or bear. Or lions. Or feral horses.
OK fair enough. Given that ID, MT and WY are predominantly rural/ranching states and that historically the main reason for shooting predators such as wolves was the taking of the calves - answer this question: who is it that has lobbied successfully for the states to put the wolf on the hunting lists? The city folk from Bozeman? Who shot the radio collared wolves just as soon as the ban on hunting them was lifted a few weeks ago, just next to the Yellowstone park border (as if wolves know where the exact border is?)? Some random "tree hugger" city guy from San Francisco?

Does this http://wildnews.cleanwebdesign.com/w...804-064528.jpg look like your average city guy some decades back?

In fact, what is the "excuse" for hunting wolves? I can see people hunting deer for population control, food etc. You can't eat a wolf so why the persistent insistence to kill them in these states? Do they interfere with city traffic in Billings? Or their aerial killing in Alaska as bragged about and pushed by that half brained former Governor of theirs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post

I, too, would like to know: What have you done for wildlife?

Do you feed them?
No. You are not supposed to feed wildlife. In fact (I am not sure about federal laws) but in some states it is illegal to feed wildlife and fines can be pretty steep. Only in Texas have I seen the mass stuffing of the deer with corn and deer feed. But then again only in Texas have I seen caged hunts or people shooting deer from stands in their 10+ acre properties (while feeding them?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
Provide water for wildlife?
Make stock tanks safe for animals who might get in and not be able to get out on their own?
Do you monitor forage on public land?
Do you correct erosion?
Do you protect migratory pathways for herbivores?
Being married to a wildlife veterinarian who has operated on pelicans, possums, even on a bald eagle that someone shot in a sugar cane field (he recovered and went on to be an education animal, could never be released back due to the injuries), I have participated in hands on care of any injured wildlife you can imagine, fund raising, donating money to various organizations etc. I am somewhat familiar with the issues surrounding wildlife protection in this country as well as the history behind particular species.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
Most ranchers do.
I beg to differ. Most ranchers do what they damn well please . Some of them are nice to wildlife, some of them not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
By the way, the BLM and Forest Service both have programs for volunteers, so you could put your words into action and do something for a cause you supposedly care about. If you are physically unable to get out in the field there are other opportunities.
Yes Sir, well familiar with that. Thank you.

OD

Last edited by ognend; 12-28-2012 at 08:05 PM..
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:19 PM
 
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Hey ognend.

How about you step out of you're nice pretty city life and come out where people make the food. Sit in an open field like the rest of your daily dinner does and hope you don't get eaten.

IMHO, your naivety of living in non-urban environments disqualifies you from preaching about predator and prey. You have all kinds of educational BS about the subject but I invite you to live in my woods for a few days. They're much more cozy only having snakes, canines and hogs to mess with you compared to my friends in the swamps or other locations who admit the food chain turns totally upside down after dark.

Go lay with the animals and see how you feel. Yea, you want to protect a wolf. The rest of us may want to protect the 100 animals that wolf will eat.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:19 PM
 
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ognend said:
Quote:
No. You are not supposed to feed wildlife. In fact (I am not sure about federal laws) but in some states it is illegal to feed wildlife and fines can be pretty steep. Only in Texas have I seen the mass stuffing of the deer with corn and deer feed. But then again only in Texas have I seen caged hunts or people shooting deer from stands in their 10+ acre properties (while feeding them?).
And you obviously haven't had just over 300 head of elk and untold numbers deer and antelope on your privately owned hay fields, now have you?
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:55 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
ognend said:

And you obviously haven't had just over 300 head of elk and untold numbers deer and antelope on your privately owned hay fields, now have you?
Is this by choice? If so, why are you feeding them? Tax breaks? Goodness of your heart? The knowledge that if fed, there will be more left to shoot after the winter?

What did these elk do before you showed up?

OD

Last edited by ognend; 12-29-2012 at 07:08 AM..
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:02 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR View Post
Hey ognend.

How about you step out of you're nice pretty city life and come out where people make the food. Sit in an open field like the rest of your daily dinner does and hope you don't get eaten.
I grow a lot of my own food. I don't know how you "make" your food wherever you are but growing the veggies has not been that dangerous so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR View Post
IMHO, your naivety of living in non-urban environments disqualifies you from preaching about predator and prey. You have all kinds of educational BS about the subject
Would you rather me be very uneducated? Speak in "f*** this, f*** that" terms? Would that make me more believable to you? Should I be more f***in offensive? What terms are going to be appropriate for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR View Post
only having snakes, canines and hogs to mess with you compared to my friends in the swamps or other locations who admit the food chain turns totally upside down after dark.

Go lay with the animals and see how you feel.
The vast majority of rural people never "lay with the animals" - whatever that means. They live in small towns, have small town jobs etc. Only 2.5% of the US population farms. Given that much more than 2.5% of US population lives in rural areas, common sense tells you that a large number of these rural folks are NOT farmers. Of the population that ranches a big percentage uses trucks, ATVs etc. Many of them have no idea what it takes to break a horse and ride the fence. Too lazy to do that and it doesn't pay to waste the time. Yes, there is calving involved, doctoring and branding for some folks. But that's not "laying with" the WILD animals. You could be the exception but you are definitely NOT the rule if you "lay" with the snakes and the hogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR View Post
Yea, you want to protect a wolf. The rest of us may want to protect the 100 animals that wolf will eat.
I am guessing you slept through the biology class in school?

You have no business protecting the 100 species - Mother Nature will put it in balance if you let it do its job and get out of its way. To put it in more theological terms, you are NOT God.

OD
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Is this by choice? If so, why are you feeding them? Tax breaks? Goodness of your heart? The knowledge that if fed, there will be more left to shoot after the winter?

What did these elk do before you showed up?

OD

They were killed and/or controlled by other predators, over grazing, harsh conditions and disease just like they are now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend
You have no business protecting the 100 species - Mother Nature will put it in balance if you let it do its job and get out of its way. To put it in more theological terms, you are NOT God.
Not your job? Get out of mother natures way? You are a extremest and every bit of what I stated in my first post.

Why wouldn't it be our job by God or mother nature? If you go the God route then animals are our charge. Since that statement was just mere sarcasm from you let's go the mother nature route.

If we are simply another predator, We are part of mother nature. Just mere animals. Mother nature allowed us to develop as the top predator. Then it is still our job to keep the checks and balances. To separate us out of the equation as you suggest would be ridiculous. You suggest packing us in high density housing units and cutting off a large part of the diet and most of mother nature. Can you say "Peta Nut". You are spouting self loathing at human existence.

What happens to any animal when they are overcrowded and cut off from part of their food supply and resources? Death, disease and famine. That's your desire. Packing people to centralized locations where disasters have a higher toll on the population numbers.This isn't about the welfare of animals, its about rights you imagine for them and wishing people were dead. Wanting us to demise some so other species take our place.

That's fine, believe what you want. Don't propagate and eat your salad.

Don't fret. If we are just merely animals we well come and go like many species before us. We aren't hurting the planet as you suggest but our own environment. That should make you happy. The planet will recover and develop after our demise with species that can adapt. Mother Nature will solve the problem.

If it's God, then one day he'll come calling. You get the same result.

Like it or not, We are here and now. To think we should cull our habitat and food sources goes against every animal instinct.

Like it or not, other species thrive because we have a need for them in someway or they adapt to the conditions with us being the top predator. That is mother natures way, NOT the Disney fairytale of them dancing in the woods with no people around in your brain.


You should want hunting and the desire to hunt if you want to boost populations. Hunters want to continue hunting. Hunters know about management. The only times when they don't is when outside influences have a desired outcome. You mention the bison early on. It had nothing to do with hunting but controlling a population of humans. Predators were demised out of fear.

Then there would be the debate of need for other top predators. The way to get around that is to develop a need or want. Hunting them is a strong motivation to develop sustainable populations.

We are here, I don't want to see infanticide, genocide or any other destruction of the human population.

For other species to prosper at this point they have to adapt or we have to like them, love them, need them or eat them. Becoming part of our survival is the best guarantee.
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:00 PM
 
2,570 posts, read 2,609,974 times
Reputation: 4410
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Is this by choice? If so, why are you feeding them? Tax breaks? Goodness of your heart? The knowledge that if fed, there will be more left to shoot after the winter?

What did these elk do before you showed up?

OD

By choice? lol I don't think you've been out much. Wildlife hops over, crawls through, or, in the case of elk, they often barge through fences.

And before my neighbors and I were here and growing hay? There weren't as many elk, deer, antelope.

The tourists like being able to see them. They do provide food for those of us who subsistence hunt. They are an important part of the over all ecosystem and part of where we live.
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