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Old 12-29-2012, 03:09 PM
 
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Interesting. A woman has moved to town, from back East. She is just not fitting in with the culture here.

You either get it, or you don't.

She has already alienated herself from some of the nicest folks I know. I am not sure why, but she is just not fitting in.

She will, no doubt, move on soon, hating folks around here, for not being "nice" to new folks.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:04 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
By choice? lol I don't think you've been out much. Wildlife hops over, crawls through, or, in the case of elk, they often barge through fences.

And before my neighbors and I were here and growing hay? There weren't as many elk, deer, antelope.

The tourists like being able to see them. They do provide food for those of us who subsistence hunt. They are an important part of the over all ecosystem and part of where we live.
OK - so you called me out to say what I did for furthering the cause of wildlife preservation (somehow implying that I don't do anything but talk but you apparently do more). From what I can see above, you (apparently unwillingly) provide your hay fields for the elk and antelope. In the process (or in return for the favor) a few of the elk and antelope die by your hand AND at the same time provide money for the local economy via (dumb) city folk who "like to see them" (alive, I presume).


OD
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,786 posts, read 11,271,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhult View Post
They were killed and/or controlled by other predators, over grazing, harsh conditions and disease just like they are now.




Not your job? Get out of mother natures way? You are a extremest and every bit of what I stated in my first post.

Why wouldn't it be our job by God or mother nature? If you go the God route then animals are our charge. Since that statement was just mere sarcasm from you let's go the mother nature route.

If we are simply another predator, We are part of mother nature. Just mere animals. Mother nature allowed us to develop as the top predator. Then it is still our job to keep the checks and balances. To separate us out of the equation as you suggest would be ridiculous. You suggest packing us in high density housing units and cutting off a large part of the diet and most of mother nature. Can you say "Peta Nut". You are spouting self loathing at human existence.

What happens to any animal when they are overcrowded and cut off from part of their food supply and resources? Death, disease and famine. That's your desire. Packing people to centralized locations where disasters have a higher toll on the population numbers.This isn't about the welfare of animals, its about rights you imagine for them and wishing people were dead. Wanting us to demise some so other species take our place.

That's fine, believe what you want. Don't propagate and eat your salad.

Don't fret. If we are just merely animals we well come and go like many species before us. We aren't hurting the planet as you suggest but our own environment. That should make you happy. The planet will recover and develop after our demise with species that can adapt. Mother Nature will solve the problem.

If it's God, then one day he'll come calling. You get the same result.

Like it or not, We are here and now. To think we should cull our habitat and food sources goes against every animal instinct.

Like it or not, other species thrive because we have a need for them in someway or they adapt to the conditions with us being the top predator. That is mother natures way, NOT the Disney fairytale of them dancing in the woods with no people around in your brain.

You should want hunting and the desire to hunt if you want to boost populations. Hunters want to continue hunting. Hunters know about management. The only times when they don't is when outside influences have a desired outcome. You mention the bison early on. It had nothing to do with hunting but controlling a population of humans. Predators were demised out of fear.

Then there would be the debate of need for other top predators. The way to get around that is to develop a need or want. Hunting them is a strong motivation to develop sustainable populations.

We are here, I don't want to see infanticide, genocide or any other destruction of the human population.

For other species to prosper at this point they have to adapt or we have to like them, love them, need them or eat them. Becoming part of our survival is the best guarantee.

Dave Foreman, founder of Earth First, was certainly correct when he stated that Man is the cancer of the planet.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:26 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhult View Post
They were killed and/or controlled by other predators, over grazing, harsh conditions and disease just like they are now.




Not your job? Get out of mother natures way? You are a extremest and every bit of what I stated in my first post.

Why wouldn't it be our job by God or mother nature? If you go the God route then animals are our charge. Since that statement was just mere sarcasm from you let's go the mother nature route.

If we are simply another predator, We are part of mother nature. Just mere animals. Mother nature allowed us to develop as the top predator. Then it is still our job to keep the checks and balances. To separate us out of the equation as you suggest would be ridiculous. You suggest packing us in high density housing units and cutting off a large part of the diet and most of mother nature. Can you say "Peta Nut". You are spouting self loathing at human existence.

What happens to any animal when they are overcrowded and cut off from part of their food supply and resources? Death, disease and famine. That's your desire. Packing people to centralized locations where disasters have a higher toll on the population numbers.This isn't about the welfare of animals, its about rights you imagine for them and wishing people were dead. Wanting us to demise some so other species take our place.

That's fine, believe what you want. Don't propagate and eat your salad.

Don't fret. If we are just merely animals we well come and go like many species before us. We aren't hurting the planet as you suggest but our own environment. That should make you happy. The planet will recover and develop after our demise with species that can adapt. Mother Nature will solve the problem.

If it's God, then one day he'll come calling. You get the same result.

Like it or not, We are here and now. To think we should cull our habitat and food sources goes against every animal instinct.

Like it or not, other species thrive because we have a need for them in someway or they adapt to the conditions with us being the top predator. That is mother natures way, NOT the Disney fairytale of them dancing in the woods with no people around in your brain.


You should want hunting and the desire to hunt if you want to boost populations. Hunters want to continue hunting. Hunters know about management. The only times when they don't is when outside influences have a desired outcome. You mention the bison early on. It had nothing to do with hunting but controlling a population of humans. Predators were demised out of fear.

Then there would be the debate of need for other top predators. The way to get around that is to develop a need or want. Hunting them is a strong motivation to develop sustainable populations.

We are here, I don't want to see infanticide, genocide or any other destruction of the human population.

For other species to prosper at this point they have to adapt or we have to like them, love them, need them or eat them. Becoming part of our survival is the best guarantee.
I wrote a reply point by point to all your personal attacks and characterizations. But then I deleted it. Who cares.

I will soon live in a self built energy efficient straw bale / stone house made out of local materials - I am building it myself. I grow most of my veggies, work from home so I only have to drive once a week for whatever groceries I can't grow/make. I have no animal blood on my hands, hawks and coyote and road runners are my brothers. I cook most of my food, I have solar panels for electricity. I recycle my horse's manures back into the soil so I can grow nice green grass and good veggies. Neighbors laugh at me when they see me spending the day back and forth with the wheelbarrow full of rotting manure, spreading it around the acreage so I can make it more organic and richer. They think I am stupid to do everything manually and spend my sweat. "Buy a tractor", they say. We have composting toilets for our own manure. It is almost a closed system. That to me is UNintrusive stewardship of the planet since I take almost nothing and return almost everything I use back. The next project is to try and recycle the town's frying oil into biodiesel for my truck (and others if they want it). I guess a lot of my rural folk-neighbors (if they knew my lifestyle) would look down on me as another dumb tree-hugger ('cause you know, they know the country life and what it is all about).

Most of my RURAL neighbors who have been here for generations have jobs in town, are fat or severely out of shape and buy food (junk) at the grocery store, driving their diesel trucks 20-30 miles away every day. Buy a big dually, strap on a belt buckle and you are an instant cowboy. They are all victims of the local electric company, live in poorly insulated stick homes whose lumber was milled in Canada or China and spent thousands of miles and hundreds of gallons of fuel to get to their property to be turned into an energy inefficient ugly box, even though there is stone EVERYWHERE around here and straw bales within a 40 mile radius at $4/bale delivered. Them rural neighbors know nothing of growing their food. Some of them have dozens of acres (compared to my five) yet a lot of it is used to kill deer and that's it. That makes it the COUNTRY, I suppose, but apparently what do I know... Some of them even fence it with high fences and bring exotic species of ungulates to keep and kill for fun. They got horses they don't ride, even when they got cattle on 2,000 acres - it is easier to fire up the ATV or the truck and burn some (infinitely available fossil fuels) to get the job done, cowboy. They got goats they show and after the show, goat is meat. It used to have a name, now it's a meal. One of them rancher neighbors has show goats in a poorly constructed pen, the goats keep escaping only to meet his dogs and end up torn up. When asked what he is doing about it he says "we are the rancher type, who cares", so the goat keeps on limping with a torn up dangling leg until it either survives or dies. Why spend money on a veterinary bill when it is cheaper to buy a new goat, after all they are just a COMMODITY, not living beings. Their horse manure is piled in sky-high piles and rotting without any use only to be "cleaned out" with a bulldozer once a year (moved to the back of the property where it is out of sight). Et cetera, et cetera. So much for being in touch with Nature.

Hey, they/you are the conservationists 'cause you hunt the wolves and save the hundreds of species the few remaining pairs of wolves would eat. Another big conservationist here also provides acreage (albeit unwillingly it would appear) for the elk they will hunt afterwards. Nothing spells conservation efforts more than your deeds.

I am the PETA powered people hater, on the other hand, it would appear.

Thanks,
OD

Last edited by ognend; 12-29-2012 at 06:45 PM..
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:39 AM
 
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I recycle my horse's manures back into the soil so I can grow nice green grass and good veggies.

the above is the only icky thing in your post above.. doesn't sound too good. I dont think i could ever be a farmer if that is what is normal for farming! sorry.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,490 posts, read 38,407,488 times
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Originally Posted by ChicagoMeO View Post
I recycle my horse's manures back into the soil so I can grow nice green grass and good veggies.

the above is the only icky thing in your post above.. doesn't sound too good. I dont think i could ever be a farmer if that is what is normal for farming! sorry.
When I was boarding my horses and working at the stables to support my horse habit before we found our own place, we had two mountains of horse manure - the old one and the one being filled. (40 horses produce a lot of manure.)

Boarders had first dibs on the composted manure (the old mountain). Once boarders had had their choice, it was for sale for $10/pickup truck load. (Extra to load it, paid directly to the hand who did it.) City folk would come out in droves to get it; it's gold for gardening. (Chicken litter is better, I've discovered, once it's had time to mellow.)

It's not only normal for farming, it's normal for gardening in the city. Usually, though, in the city you don't have the access to it described above, so you pay extra for it in bags at the garden store. What did you THINK was in those fertilizer bags labeled "manure", anyway, and where did you think it comes from? Same place, totally unrelated to actual animals, that the meat in the plastic trays at the grocery store comes from?

ognend, now I KNOW you're full of it, with that comment about neighbors laughing at you for using the manure. No one I've known in this part of the world (where you ostensibly are), city OR country, in all my years, doesn't know that that is a good thing. Maybe they're laughing at you for something else? Maybe your holier than thou "I know SO much more about how things should be than the people who've lived here for generations" attitude that comes off of you in waves, at least online, is giving them a belly laugh?
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:44 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
ognend, now I KNOW you're full of it, with that comment about neighbors laughing at you for using the manure. No one I've known in this part of the world (where you ostensibly are), city OR country, in all my years, doesn't know that that is a good thing. Maybe they're laughing at you for something else? Maybe your holier than thou "I know SO much more about how things should be than the people who've lived here for generations" attitude that comes off of you in waves, at least online, is giving them a belly laugh?
Come and drive around the area and look at people's properties. My very neighbor next door has 3 horses and a donkey and they do not use their manure for anything, they don't grow anything etc. They drive by in their "mule" (Kawasaki) burning fossil fuels when they could be riding their 75 acre fence on a horse (why have three if you are not going to use them?) and their jaws drop when they see the garden with lettuce, spices, peas, flowers, and the manure neatly spread out on my property, deer fenced and all. They got a tractor too but apparently for looks. I speak of what I SEE. They all got a job in town or in the city (an hour drive from here!).

When we got the property we spent a month hand cutting the overgrown cedar. Don't you think I could have gotten a gasoline powered chainsaw? It took us a month of back breaking labor to clean the woods and the trash the previous "trash" left. Beer bottles, plastic, bags, food wrappers, pieces of metal. We used our horses to pull large branches to the piles. Don't you think I could have gone out and bought a tractor for that? Be a real "rural folk"? Nah....

I think YOU are full of it and have no idea what you are talking about.

OTOH, I have visited old German farmland near New Braunfels, it was impeccable. 4th generation farmers from Germany, you can see they brought their culture with them, every blade of grass accounted for on their properties. Dogs behind fences (where they belong), cows clean and healthy, horses in good shape and obviously used. But, that's the exception, in my experience, NOT the rule.

By the way, two days ago I ended up with two "foreign" dogs in my yard. Escaped a "responsible" owner. Fortunately they had tags so we could call the owners. "Yeah, they escaped a few hours ago, this is not the first time"... Right...

What am I doing anyways? Arguing with a real estate agent whose profession is in direct conflict with the stuff they argue here. You don't like them dumb city folk but their green money sure is nice when you sell them the rural paradise... You are the one with the conflict of interest and the one full of it, not me. How many properties have you sold in your rual neck of the wood to outsiders? I am sure some of these outsiders are the very high falootin' people you bad mouth here. Hey, you are part of the food chain, no? In my opinion, YOU are the problem. In every small town I have been the real estate agent had the nicest properties and houses and all the money, all from selling to the dumb city folk. And for what? And you always had to open your eyes - they always had a piece of property to offload on some unsuspecting idiot from the city, the piece nobody local would ever want.

You should have seen my property when I got it, it had 7 horses on 5 acres (yes, my previous rural, in touch with the country, owner had a stud and 6 more horses on 5 acres with a VERY poor fence which caused the stallion to be at the neighbor's more than at its own place). The land was overgrazed to the dirt and has taken a lot of TLC to SLOWLY start coming back to life.

Holier than thou? Nope, I just say it like I see it. You just don't like it since me coming from the city have more sense about Nature and land than the guy who has been here before me.

Another rural neighbor here told me openly that he only cleans out the barn and the stalls once a year. Apparently his horses "love it outside" so why bother (this is the same guy with the goats running loose and getting torn up). Yeah, right, ALL his horses love it outside even in 15 degrees and/or cold rain. Is it that or just pure ignorance, stupidity and laziness? I vote to the latter. Anyone with a "using horse" they depend on and ride will take care of their animal properly.

Anyways, I am out, done arguing. Live and let live, right?
OD

Last edited by ognend; 12-30-2012 at 12:04 PM..
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,490 posts, read 38,407,488 times
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ognend, you might not realize it (no reason you should), but I moved to the country from the city. After moving from the country to the city. I've lived in both (and in small towns) at various times in my life. In order to have the motivations that you ascribe to me, I'd have to have a multiple personality problem and the personalities would have to not like each other.

I have managed, however, unlike some, to keep my superiority complex in check when moving from one place to another.

As for the neighbor who lets his horses stay out (how many barns do the wild herds that live in the wild as horses are designed to do have, by the way?), I've had my horses up 22/7, only being out and used a couple of hours a day. I've had my horses stalled 12/12 (in at night, out during the day on 130 acres to run with the herd). I've had my horses out 24/7/365 with a barn that they can go in or not as they prefer free choice. In the first five years we were out here, in all kinds of weather, the horses came into the barn of their own choice precisely once, in a very very very fine mist. That including a period of time during which we had an ice storm, we had snow (it was interesting to see the snow mounded on their backs and realize how much insulation their coats provided, we had rain, we had hail, we had all the kinds of weather that Central Texas can throw at us. As my foundation mare aged, she started spending the hottest part of the day in the barn rather than under the trees as the other horses did and she always had, and that was fine.

The point was, I keep careful health records for my horses. They have been healthiest when allowed to be out 24/7 with an option of coming in if they want (and they never do - if they come in, it's for MY convenience). Never mind the research that shows that stalled horses have 12 times the colic of horses that are out 24/7. Now, granted, my vet bills have been lowest during that period of time, as well.

This whole conversation brings this to mind, really.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:16 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,926,100 times
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Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
ognend, you might not realize it (no reason you should), but I moved to the country from the city. After moving from the country to the city. I've lived in both (and in small towns) at various times in my life. In order to have the motivations that you ascribe to me, I'd have to have a multiple personality problem and the personalities would have to not like each other.

I have managed, however, unlike some, to keep my superiority complex in check when moving from one place to another.

As for the neighbor who lets his horses stay out (how many barns do the wild herds that live in the wild as horses are designed to do have, by the way?), I've had my horses up 22/7, only being out and used a couple of hours a day. I've had my horses stalled 12/12 (in at night, out during the day on 130 acres to run with the herd). I've had my horses out 24/7/365 with a barn that they can go in or not as they prefer free choice. In the first five years we were out here, in all kinds of weather, the horses came into the barn of their own choice precisely once, in a very very very fine mist. That including a period of time during which we had an ice storm, we had snow (it was interesting to see the snow mounded on their backs and realize how much insulation their coats provided, we had rain, we had hail, we had all the kinds of weather that Central Texas can throw at us. As my foundation mare aged, she started spending the hottest part of the day in the barn rather than under the trees as the other horses did and she always had, and that was fine.

The point was, I keep careful health records for my horses. They have been healthiest when allowed to be out 24/7 with an option of coming in if they want (and they never do - if they come in, it's for MY convenience). Never mind the research that shows that stalled horses have 12 times the colic of horses that are out 24/7. Now, granted, my vet bills have been lowest during that period of time, as well.

This whole conversation brings this to mind, really.

You may not realize it but this whole discussion is not about me or you. It is about this whole underlining assumption that city folk come to the country all green and clueless and the rural folk snicker, laugh behind their backs since the city folk are so dumb, but somehow through the power of numbers and money the vicious city folk manage to spoil the serene country life with their rules and desires.

I call BS on that by way of telling you that there are plenty of rural idiots living in the countryside and that these idiots have no idea about the land or Nature. The only beef these rural folks have with the city folks is that the city folks bring rules and regulations that spoil the wild shootings at stop and other traffic signs (which small town does not have half of them full of buckshot?), the (hunting) dogs wandering into other people's yards, they bring animal shelters and anti-animal cruelty investigations etc.

The only valid complaint I can see is the pavement of everything and increased taxes, something that I myself am against (and I came from the city). My point has been that a lot of rural folk DO NOT farm their land and have no clue about farming and at the same time they live just as environmentally unsustainable lifestyles (if not worse) than the "citiots" they complain about. At the same time they portray themselves as "close to the land" and "conservationists". Some of them ranch (good for them!) but a lot of them only keep enough cows on the property to get an Ag tax exemption. They could care less about the cows otherwise.

Now, on to horses. The set up you have is the set up I have - the horses are out 24/7 with the option of going into a CLEAN stall. They will NEVER be found standing in their own manure up to their knees because I treat them with respect and love they deserve as any other living being deserves.

If I ever had goats they would be in a SAFE enclosure and if hurt, well, my wife is a veterinarian but if she was not, they would get the care they need. They sure as hell would not end up in the freezer.

You will NEVER see me driving my dog in the back of my pickup, as many of my rural neighbors do. (If this is not illegal, it should be but I guess if I tried to push for that I would be another "citiot" trying to "change our quaint rural lifestyle"). But, some rural idiots don't care if Fido gets splattered on the farm road at 55 mph with me behind risking to get Fido in my windshield if I don't run him over.

And so on, and so on.

My whole point of this discussion was to show through real world examples, tit-for-tat that there are as many idiots living rurally as there are coming from the city and that quite a few rural environments are not really rural anymore in the true sense of the word.

And just because someone has been here for 4 generations doesn't mean they did or do the right thing by their land. Heck, people used to train horses with a 2x4, that's now looked down upon. So, when I come from the city to live in the country, I expect rural folk to live the rural lifestyle (farming, ranching) AND DOING RIGHT by the land and the animals, treating them with RESPECT. The rest is just icing on the cake.

OD
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:07 PM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 23,670,530 times
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Originally Posted by Dhult View Post
So you believe, People should all be packed into small developed areas so nature can take back the lands. The rest of the land should be owned by the state.

Yeah, I know what you are. I would state you are the walking agenda 21 handbook but that would probably make me a conspiracy theorist.

Instead, Your an elitist people hating snob. Should have noted from all your previous posts railing against capitalism. You dislike people very much and your posts scream of controlling people and against private property. Your opinions suck.

"Hunting is bad, we don't need cows, go to the grocery store where the meat magically appears (of course it was humanly killed) LOL" Nah, you would probably outlaw meat.

NO, you don't need to lay out your opinions to clarify what you are. You are everything that rural and small town living is not about and nothing this country still stands for.

So you believe there is no need for hunting or people in areas because will just bring back the wolfs and big cats and pack people in high density cities?

Hmm, Not today nor tomorrow but have fun daydreaming of your Orwellian paradise.
Thats not Agenda 21 is about , although the right has painted it as that. It promotes Smart growth which limits the growth or sprawl which is a huge problem in certain regions. Smart Growth benefits the Rural regions as it encourages inward growth instead of outward growth. It does not infringe on property rights , it often adds to the value of your land. It doesn't prevent hunting or using lands for Farming , it encourages that.... Agenda 21 was aimed at developing countries with lessons and ideas taken from the Northeastern US and Europe.... It wasn't aimed at the US , although it was signed here as a volunteer thing... The US and Canada have their own land use policies abet poor ones , which is why you see some much rural land destroyed each year by sprawl...that does happen in Europe... Nor are people forced to live in high density cities , like Manhattan....which we all know that Manhattan sets the standard for growth in the US. Each city or town has their own plan , mostly ideas that residents want who intend meetings... 99% of plans do not take property away from people unless its needed for road or transit expansions.... Most plans encourage the reuse of what we have instead of building outwards.. In most towns the growth is in the Downtown or Main street areas like the Pre-1950s America....they still build Suburban developments but its more dense and walkable like old America.. These developments are very popular and sell or lease out within months....

Rural developments should be concentrated in the large towns and not in the middle of Nowhere....like alot of these developments are these days. Reusing the mostly abandoned Main street , with shops on the bottom , apartments or lofts above in the center of town and suburban development surrounding the Downtown strip or core...is the right way This type of development was popular Pre-1950s and is starting to become popular again mainly in the Midwest and West Coast.
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