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Old 02-01-2009, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,735,734 times
Reputation: 3364

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Yes, I'm about 20 minutes out of Seattle, but at the top of the lake so not easy commuting. This whole area was farms, or large lots chunked out of farms with a few spread out neighborhoods (big lawn types). Once Seattle spread East over the lake, it just started to grow North up and over the lake. Now all the lots have been subdivided and new cheapy houses spring up every week on postage stamp lawns that you can spit across. None of the roads were built for the increased traffic so there are new speed bumps and traffic lights on what used to be "back roads" and the main state road has been under construction to add new lanes for almost 2 years. I didn't used to worry about leaving my door unlocked, now I'll cut a u-ey if I even think I might have forgotten to lock them.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Rolla, Phelps County, Ozarks, Missouri
1,069 posts, read 2,255,392 times
Reputation: 1259
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoNative34 View Post
I'm looking forward to selling my land when it happens. I'll be set for life.
Although we complain about it, urban sprawl is a wonderful thing. It increases property values, so people can sell out and make a fortune after working their farms or homesteads for years. Sprawl is also a sign of economic activity, and every community wants that.

East of Rolla on Soest Road there is a rural subdivision with beautiful, huge (to my way of thinking anyway) houses. The subdivision has a couple of Missouri Century Farms near it, one abutting it and one across the road from it. It may take awhile but eventually those Century Farms will be subdivided for more housing as Rolla grows, progresses and prospers. Isn't that a good thing? Maybe we'll even have enough population then to support an Olive Garden, which is everyone's dream in Rolla. Maybe we can even get one of those coveted Starbucks coffee shops, although we have three nice coffee shops already.

Sprawl means people are getting a piece of the American dream; they're owning land. I used to complain about it. I used to fight it. Now I embrace it.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,120 posts, read 7,659,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
Sprawl means people are getting a piece of the American dream; they're owning land. I used to complain about it. I used to fight it. Now I embrace it.
Umm Hey Buddy,
They got any good shrinks in Rolla?...
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,735,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
Although we complain about it, urban sprawl is a wonderful thing. It increases property values, so people can sell out and make a fortune after working their farms or homesteads for years. Sprawl is also a sign of economic activity, and every community wants that.
There is a limit to how much sprawl actually equates to increased property value. When our neighborhood was more spread out with larger lots, our property values went up a little when the vacant lots were built on. But when the big lots got subdivided and identical cracker box house started going in on postage stamp lots, everyone's property values went down again. When an area gets overdeveloped, and if any of those houses are left vacant for some reason, everyone takes a hit. The only time things keep going up is if the economy keeps going up and there is less supply than demand. Eventually, every real estate boom has a bust.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,735,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
It may take awhile but eventually those Century Farms will be subdivided for more housing as Rolla grows, progresses and prospers. Isn't that a good thing? Maybe we'll even have enough population then to support an Olive Garden, which is everyone's dream in Rolla. Maybe we can even get one of those coveted Starbucks coffee shops, although we have three nice coffee shops already.
NO, it's not a good thing! We should be protecting every local farm and plot of arable land that we've got, not dividing them up to build more identical cheap houses on (and definitely not inefficient McMansions)! Local farms feed the community with fresh produce and other food product... so there is no need to ship food in from other places which wastes energy for transportation and depletes the nutritional value of food. Fresh, local produce beats Olive Garden and Starbucks any day!

If a town wants to expand, due to prosperity or whatever, let them build houses on crappy land that nothing grows on instead of the precious fertile land!
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Rolla, Phelps County, Ozarks, Missouri
1,069 posts, read 2,255,392 times
Reputation: 1259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali BassMan View Post
Umm Hey Buddy,
They got any good shrinks in Rolla?...
I'm beyond help. But I've been converted by my friends here on city-data to be less negative about progress and more accepting of new ideas and newcomers, and I'm finally getting my mind right.

I figure we've got plenty of land around Rolla, St. James, Cuba, Licking, Houston and St. Robert that either needs to be cleared of unproductive trees or converted from farmland to make room for taxpaying businesses and residences.

We need more people and houses, more businesses, more taxes to pay for education, healthcare, and other services. Is that sprawl or is it just growth? I think it's just goold ole growth, and it's something Californians like you can help us achieve.
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Rolla, Phelps County, Ozarks, Missouri
1,069 posts, read 2,255,392 times
Reputation: 1259
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons View Post
NO, it's not a good thing! We should be protecting every local farm and plot of arable land that we've got, not dividing them up to build more identical cheap houses on (and definitely not inefficient McMansions)! Local farms feed the community with fresh produce and other food product... so there is no need to ship food in from other places which wastes energy for transportation and depletes the nutritional value of food. Fresh, local produce beats Olive Garden and Starbucks any day!

If a town wants to expand, due to prosperity or whatever, let them build houses on crappy land that nothing grows on instead of the precious fertile land!
1. Are you proposing to prohibit people from selling their farms to developers?

2. In what community is there no need to ship food from other places? Our supermarkets in Rolla are filled with produce and meat trucked in from elsewhere, and it's cheaper than what is raised locally.

3. People around here want an Olive Garden and a Starbucks. Why is that wrong?

4. Crappy land that nothing grows on includes the tree-covered hillsides of the Ozarks. Do you agree with my suggestion that we should clearcut those hillsides to make way for houses?

5. We don't want cheap houses. We want affordable houses for folks, so everyone can experience the pleasure of home ownership. Why is that wrong?
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,120 posts, read 7,659,538 times
Reputation: 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
1. Are you proposing to prohibit people from selling their farms to developers?

2. In what community is there no need to ship food from other places? Our supermarkets in Rolla are filled with produce and meat trucked in from elsewhere, and it's cheaper than what is raised locally.

3. People around here want an Olive Garden and a Starbucks. Why is that wrong?

4. Crappy land that nothing grows on includes the tree-covered hillsides of the Ozarks. Do you agree with my suggestion that we should clearcut those hillsides to make way for houses?

5. We don't want cheap houses. We want affordable houses for folks, so everyone can experience the pleasure of home ownership. Why is that wrong?


Actually, I think you're ready to hang your own shingle out there in Rolla...
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:38 PM
 
Location: CasaMo
15,587 posts, read 7,663,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons View Post
Local farms feed the community with fresh produce and other food product... so there is no need to ship food in from other places which wastes energy for transportation and depletes the nutritional value of food.
Does this really happen in your town? Everything you eat is grown and raised right there?
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,729 posts, read 8,735,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
1. Are you proposing to prohibit people from selling their farms to developers?
To developers, yes. Or more specifically, to prohibit developers from building on it. Arable land, especially that which is already productive farm land, should be zoned agricultural and protected. A farmer could sell his land to another farmer or agricultural venture if he wants, but the best solution is to support the farmer (through commerce and elimination of over-regulation and market fixing) so that his farm is financially viable and selling to a developer is not the only option he has to make ends meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
2. In what community is there no need to ship food from other places? Our supermarkets in Rolla are filled with produce and meat trucked in from elsewhere, and it's cheaper than what is raised locally.
There are several communities that don't need to ship their food in from all over the place. I lived near an Amish community that produced all their own food, and provided most for my community as well. Of course, that meant that we couldn't eat out of season food in our area unless we'd preserved it... how tragic and inconvenient! If the cities stopped taking over all the farmland, outlying local farms could support them... that's how it used to work!

As for the "cheap food" myth, it only appears cheap. You are actually paying a lot more for it than you realize... through taxes (government subsidies), health costs from the consequences of less nutritious foods, and the less obvious destruction of the natural resources (bio-diversity). Agribusinesses can afford to sell this food "cheaply" because they do it in bulk, can take tax write-offs, put in all sorts of chemicals and additives to extend shelf-life and reduce losses, hire cheap laborers, and don't have any personal care in their produce (no personal investment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
3. People around here want an Olive Garden and a Starbucks. Why is that wrong?
Nothing is wrong with wanting an Olive Garden or a Starbucks, but you don't have to sacrifice your local farms to have either of them. Many restaurants, even some larger chains, buy local produce. The two aren't mutually exclusive unless greed gets in the way (buy cheap goods and resell at high profit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
4. Crappy land that nothing grows on includes the tree-covered hillsides of the Ozarks. Do you agree with my suggestion that we should clearcut those hillsides to make way for houses?
Well, obviously, if they are tree-covered, then something grows there! I certainly don't agree that they should be arbitrarily clearcut to build houses on. Perhaps a better solution is to come up with a forest management plan that included some reasonable development in those areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozarksboy View Post
5. We don't want cheap houses. We want affordable houses for folks, so everyone can experience the pleasure of home ownership. Why is that wrong?
Wanting to own your own home is not wrong. But you don't have to continually expand in order to do so... just because that's how our current system works doesn't mean that's the only way around the problem. Condominiums are a great example of "owning" your own residence by growing "up" not "out". Also, small houses can be built affordably and efficiently with minimum impact to the land with just a small amount of planning. "Planned Developments" aren't built or designed to utilize the natural environment properly or to be energy or resource efficient... they're built and designed to allow the developer to build the cheapest, festest, easiest way so they can sell for the most amount of profit.
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