U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Rural and Small Town Living
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-05-2009, 04:45 AM
 
1,297 posts, read 3,158,208 times
Reputation: 1506

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
I've been out of the Dairy sceen for quite some time. I've never heard of using Donkies or Llama's for guarding. Our pastures were surrounded by acres of woodland. Inside that was fencing. Some electric. I don't recall having a problem with coyotes, maybe a fox once in awhile. I do remember finding fox holes. It seems that the climates in Maine and Michigan would be closely alike.
Maybe I'm wrong there.
Wouldn't guard animals be needed more in areas with more open range?
Coyotes will not bother the cows at all. Sometimes a very young calf, but that is about it. On 3 separate dairy farms, in different parts of this town; we can only confirm 3 coyote kills on cows. For sheep the number is even more surprising...no kills at all. They are here however (as 70 kills this winter proves) and I think its prudent to take steps to protect my rather defenseless sheep.

As for range versus eastern type pastures...my understanding that protection becomes harder on the amount of cover a coyote has. MistyRiver can tell you better as she has range sheep, but from what I understand, if coyotes can sneak up on the sheep and hide in wait, then it will take more LGD's to protect them. If the range is more open and the coyotes have less cover, then fewer LGD's are needed to protect the sheep.

Where I live, with small fields and plenty of forests to hide in, convincing a hungray coyote to find a meal elsewhere is going to take a guardian of some kind. Since I only have a few sheep, and my fields are small (as compared to open range) it won't take many guard animals to do that though. The Donkey will simply coral the sheep into a circle when he hears or sees danger, then chase the coyote out of the pasture. Between this approach, using hunting and trapping, and keeping my sheep close to home, I'll probably be okay. For someone that is opposed to hunting, then they can install better fencing, or keep the fence they have and add more guardian animals.

It call comes down to economics. 3 Donkeys will cost you the same as 1 LGD. But 1 LGD is darn cheap compared to the cost of building what wildlife officals call a "coyote resistant fence". (Page wire fence with 6" squares, 4 feet high, with a strand of barb wire on the bottom to prevent digging, and a strand of barb wire on the top.) Doing a mile of this fencing would be rather expensive, so I get by with 3 strands of electric fence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-05-2009, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 6,404,250 times
Reputation: 3489
I'm in a major metropolitan area, and we also have coyotes. (They're fond of housecat, I'm told.) The animal control folks tell us that it's fruitless to try to exterminate them, because as soon as the population goes down, litter sizes increase to fill the gap.
Don't know if this is actually the case, or if Animal Control is just making excuses, but on a certain level it seems logical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2009, 05:58 PM
 
1,297 posts, read 3,158,208 times
Reputation: 1506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
I'm in a major metropolitan area, and we also have coyotes. (They're fond of housecat, I'm told.) The animal control folks tell us that it's fruitless to try to exterminate them, because as soon as the population goes down, litter sizes increase to fill the gap.
Don't know if this is actually the case, or if Animal Control is just making excuses, but on a certain level it seems logical.
No it's true.

If anyone (not just singling you out here Aconite) you can read an article I wrote regarding predator control on Sheep Farms'. This is NOT a hunting versus no-hunting sort of thing. It gives some compelling reasons why hunting might not be the right choice for predator control, and why it works well on my farm. I think its a pretty good read.

Predator Control
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Location: In The Outland
6,023 posts, read 12,074,468 times
Reputation: 3535
I better work up a recipe for BBQ coyote ! The battle over coyotes and wolves will go on forever. One thought that crossed my mind is the need to retain a balanced population of wolves and coyotes as these predators weed out the unhealthy deer and elk that may be infected with Chronic wasting syndrome. (Called Mad cow disease in cattle and known as Creutzfeldt-Jacobs Disease in humans).
If one eats an animal infected with this disease there is a substantial chance to contract this hideous but rare illness. There is no cure and always results in an early death. The culprit is a prion that is not alive such as bacteria or a virus. It cannot be killed by cooking as it is not alive, it's an abnormal protein if I'm not mistaken. And sorry broken tap but coyotes do prey on cattle. Maybe not to the degree that wolves do but they do take a toll. We need wolves and coyotes but a proper balance has to be found.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2009, 07:03 PM
 
11,257 posts, read 44,321,149 times
Reputation: 15083
I suspect that the report re "coyote's don't attack cows" comes from two entirely different perspectives ...

1) a dairy operation

2) wide open large prairie acreage cattle operations in the West

I KNOW for a FACT that coyotes attack cattle out our way. I've seen the results of their damage, as well as know of confirmed coyote kills. Maybe they don't bother cows/cattle in confined operations, but here ... where it takes over 100 acres to support a cow ... there's a lot of territory to protect and the coyotes have the upper hand for a lot of it.

I also know that you can train a good quality LGD to patrol his a "territory" as an independent guardian. Ours know the territory of our ranch, and don't go out on "patrol" much past the fence lines around the perimeter ... in some areas, we are "open range", and don't have a fence at all between us and our neighbor's land. For the most part, our LGD's stay with the sheep they've bonded with and know to protect. The LGD's don't go very far from their charges.

The breeders we got our LGD's from run large ranches ... 25,000 and 45,000 acres. The dogs are not confined in any way, but stay with their sheep flocks out in the field from the day they're born until they are too old to fend for themselves against the predators any longer. Then, they're retired to the barns and corrals.

Having had less than a good experience with both llamas (we even ran a "rescue" as a means to acquire more of them) and donkeys for guardian functions ... I'll take the LGD's anytime. Even though it means another bunch of mouths to feed and work for us ... it's worth it. Wouldn't have my sheep protected without them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2009, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,962,646 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
I suspect that the report re "coyote's don't attack cows" comes from two entirely different perspectives ...

1) a dairy operation

2) wide open large prairie acreage cattle operations in the West

I KNOW for a FACT that coyotes attack cattle out our way. I've seen the results of their damage, as well as know of confirmed coyote kills. Maybe they don't bother cows/cattle in confined operations, but here ... where it takes over 100 acres to support a cow ... there's a lot of territory to protect and the coyotes have the upper hand for a lot of it.

I also know that you can train a good quality LGD to patrol his a "territory" as an independent guardian. Ours know the territory of our ranch, and don't go out on "patrol" much past the fence lines around the perimeter ... in some areas, we are "open range", and don't have a fence at all between us and our neighbor's land. For the most part, our LGD's stay with the sheep they've bonded with and know to protect. The LGD's don't go very far from their charges.

The breeders we got our LGD's from run large ranches ... 25,000 and 45,000 acres. The dogs are not confined in any way, but stay with their sheep flocks out in the field from the day they're born until they are too old to fend for themselves against the predators any longer. Then, they're retired to the barns and corrals.

Having had less than a good experience with both llamas (we even ran a "rescue" as a means to acquire more of them) and donkeys for guardian functions ... I'll take the LGD's anytime. Even though it means another bunch of mouths to feed and work for us ... it's worth it. Wouldn't have my sheep protected without them.
I don't recall BrokenTap ever saying that Coyotes NEVER attacked cattle.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2009, 12:26 AM
 
1,688 posts, read 7,047,338 times
Reputation: 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickers View Post
as these predators weed out the unhealthy deer and elk that may be infected with Chronic wasting syndrome. (Called Mad cow disease in cattle and known as Creutzfeldt-Jacobs Disease in humans).

The culprit is a prion that is not alive such as bacteria or a virus. It cannot be killed by cooking as it is not alive, .
On a point of order because as far as I am aware a lot this is patently untrue:

BSE = bovine spongiform enceph.... (would have to go look the rest of the word up and I'm lazy) = Mad Cow Disease.

Variant CJD = human disease contracted by eating beef produced from a BSE infected cow. There are other issues here too (i.e. volumn of meat, spinal column of slaughtered animal removed and destroyed or not), but let's leave it at that for the moment. It's the human disease contracted from eating beef from a BSE infected cow.

CWD - Chronic Wasting Disease - a disease that only exists among ungulates. Origin unknown. In studies done in Colorado - again, I'd have to go look it up and I'm lazy - CWD is not contagious between deer species, nor does it have anything to do with BSE. My breeder of one of deer species I raise (fallow deer), provided deer for the study. (Fallow deer living in close proximity with CWD affected deer, white tails I believe, failed to contract the disease. No one knows why.) AFAIK - modes of transmission are still undetermined. It's also a very regional disease - while endemic in certain parts of the US, it's virtually unknown in others. Again, AFAIK, no one has been able to determine why.

BSE is a man-made disease. In the UK, its origins can be traced back to the addition of sheep remains to cattle feed. Although this practise had been ongoing for some time, BSE only came about AFTER the manufacturing process changed. In the orginal feeds, the remains were processed at ultra high temperatures in order to render the animal remains into, effectively, ash. At a particular point in time, and the date escapes me, cattle feed manufactureres discovered a way of producing the same end product at a lower temperature with a shorter rendering time. Enter the prion.

The suspicion is that previously, the ultra high temperatures used to render made the addition of animal remains to cattle feed "safe". Let us not venture into the ethical territory here for the purpose of this post.

Once Variant CJD appeared, this was also traced backwards to the habit (again, in the UK - this is the history and the studies I am familiar with) of leaving the spinal chord intact and and not removing it prior to processing. AFAIK, all spinal columns from all beef processed in the UK are removed and destroyed by burning now - and have been for some time. Incidents of Variant CJD have all but disappeared (and truth be told, it took some very, very serious meat-eating - and meat of dubious quality and origin - to contract it.) This all happened some years back - I loose track.

I have yet to see any studies to even suggest that CWD is in any way, shape or form related to BSE in origin. Nor from what I've read do CWD affected deer show the same neurological symptoms that bovines affected with BSE do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2009, 05:09 AM
 
1,297 posts, read 3,158,208 times
Reputation: 1506
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickers View Post
And sorry broken tap but coyotes do prey on cattle. Maybe not to the degree that wolves do but they do take a toll. We need wolves and coyotes but a proper balance has to be found.
I get the feeling you think I am a hunter or something. That is not the case at all. I don't even own a gun, but I do look at hunting as one of many tools that can keep my farm profitable.

If you read my post again you will see where I said we had 3 confirmed kills on cows but not a single confirmed kill for a sheep. There are a lot of reasons for that as I explained in my article, but I am sure out west where they is little food available, the need to eat would mean a coyote takes on a much bigger animal. Here we do not worry so much about the cows and coyotes, but we also have lumbering Holsteins that will charge a coyote if seen. Given that there are so many other food choices, coyotes go elsewhere for a meal. In fact I know of one sheep farmer that uses cattle to help keep coyotes at bay from his pastures.

As for your last statement, that is just silly. There is never a steady population of coyotes. As Aconite pointed out, they control their liters in response to their population so they are either on their way up in numbers, or on their way down, but as their habitat changes, hunting pressure differs and a multitude of other factors, they are constantly in flux. I think we as humans get this wrong as we often try to maintain a balance that just does not exist by introducing species or hunting them to eradication. There is no magic balance and mother nature is smart enough to constantly adjust.

If you read my article on this issue, you will see that there is some very compelling reasons not to hunt the often hated coyote. I do allow coyote hunting here though, and while the numbers taken this year seem pretty high, one must realize that because of the heavy snow last year, the hunting numbers were down. Averaged out, you will see that is actually just a typical year of hunted coyote at about 25 coyotes.

2009=70
2008=3
2007=25
2006=23
2005=28
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2009, 09:21 AM
 
1,688 posts, read 7,047,338 times
Reputation: 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenTap View Post

As for your last statement, that is just silly. There is never a steady population of coyotes.

I think we as humans get this wrong as we often try to maintain a balance that just does not exist by introducing species or hunting them to eradication. There is no magic balance and mother nature is smart enough to constantly adjust.
Wild animal numbers are worse than the Dow Jones. It's very much boom or bust. Drought, disease, limited food supply will wipe out numbers quickly. In times of plenty, they snap back and then some... and on and on it goes.

BT - I won't get started on the whole introduced species issue... because it's not what this thread is about. It is, however, a subject near and dear to my heart. (*Eyes soapbox in corner* ) The phrase "the laws of unintended consequences" should be uttered in the same breath as "introduced species."

Can someone tell me - from observation, it seems to me that there are regional size variations of coyotes. The coyotes around here are quite small - the biggest natural prey they'd have in my area would be whitetail - and smaller whitetail at that. I've seen photos of coyotes from other regions and to my eyes anyway, they look bigger than our local ones.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-06-2009, 07:14 PM
 
11,257 posts, read 44,321,149 times
Reputation: 15083
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
I don't recall BrokenTap ever saying that Coyotes NEVER attacked cattle.
READ Post #21, where BT asserts that coyotes won't bother cattle ... except maybe a calf.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Rural and Small Town Living
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:10 AM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top