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Old 10-05-2009, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,480 posts, read 38,390,611 times
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Marmac, how much outdoor lighting do you have at your place at night?
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:58 AM
 
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And there is just as many studies that say to cure seasonal depression you should use lights to improve your mood since the length of day is much shorter in the winter. My gosh there are "scientific studies" for everything. Heck this old hilly billy farm boy can apply for SARE grants and do "scientific studies" that get published if I choose to take that route. I am about as much of a scientist as they are though I guess. I am a farmer, I do have to watch nature because its far more accurate then mankind.

Still pollution...please, its like calling a garbage man a refuse engineer.

Marmac, don't add too much sarcasm. In town meeting we debated putting windmills on family land...my own farm included. As one woman said who lives in the valley in the town village, "I don't want to come home to MY hill and see windmills on them. Those are my hills, don't scar their beauty with windmills."

I said "Judy do you pay property tax on those hills. Have you been here for 252 consecutive years? We pay huge property taxes for the "views" here, we have to plow our driveways 10 times a storm, we have the wind blow the darn heat right out of our house, and we have outrageous cell phone bills because with so many towers to bounce off of, our cell phones are constantly roaming!" (Bet you never thought of the last issue). Thos are all costs for living on a hill that we pay taxes on, and she doesn't want windmills on HER hills.

Light pollution...laughable because its really just over-population.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
When we moved out here 12 years ago, we could see the Milky Way just about every clear night. It was beautiful, awe-inspiring, and we spent many an evening sitting in chairs on the lawn talking and watching it and occasionally using a telescope.

Gradually, over the years, more people have moved to the area from the city (we moved here from the city, too, by the way, and the first thing we did was turn off the outside lights unless we were actually using them). The degradation in the ability to see the stars is noticeable, and that's with them moving in not next door, but down the road.

Those of you who are laughing at the idea of "light pollution" might want to actually follow the link I've provided and read some of the information there. Heck, you don't even have to go that far - I've seen recent articles in the news on the studies they've found regarding the medical impact on too much light for too many hours.

However, if you'll note, I'm not advocating laws regarding lighting, simply grousing about people who are afraid of the dark who mess it up for everyone else, and pointing out that there are ways to have a win-win situation - ways of security lighting that don't ruin the skies for those who appreciate them, while at the same time reducing the financial cost for those who want security lighting.


-----"we could see the milky way just about every clear night"---

I still can.

I used to enjoy looking at it while walking from the barn to the house after milking cows in winter.

Looking at it while I was walking under the area lit up by my yard light.

If my neighbors complain that they ---can't see the milky way-- it would have more to do with cloud cover than my yard light on my property.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:40 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
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Anyone who claims that they can see just as many stars with light as without is simply blind (compare the stars on a moonless versus a full-moon night). Just because you can see some stars doesn't mean that there aren't much more. Here's a comparison from Starry Nights:


Besides, it's not a matter of rights. I thought living in a rural community would make people more aware and considerate of their community and neighbors. I live in a semi-rural/urban area. Skies are pretty dark (can see the Milky Way easily), but we have close neighbors. I am an amateur astronomer -- when I am out with my telescope, if my neighbors have their outside lights on (and they're not outside), I usually go and request if they wouldn't mind turning them off (and invite them for a view through the scope). They've always agreed. Sure, they don't have to listen. It's their right to light up their property however they want. But they are good neighbors and considerate. I'm glad I don't live next to some of the folks on this thread.

Also, I don't think the dark-sky supporters are saying that all night lighting must be extinguished. What we're saying is that inefficient lighting lights up areas where the the light is wasted. If it's security you want, what does lighting up the sky provide (other than extra cost)? Better to have full cut-off lighting which focuses light towards the ground where you want it. There's a street-light that I can see from my backyard. But its impact on star-gazing is minimal since it points light down -- almost no impact on the sky itself, but produces proper lighting on the street and sidewalk.

The Milky Way from my backyard:


Andromeda Galaxy is visible to the naked eye:
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,480 posts, read 38,390,611 times
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Well, your experience directly contradicts mine counting stars on my own place, but evidently you're one of the ones who likes to light up the night.

If the problem is the word "pollution", I'm thinking that there's something else going on here, because the word is not the issue. I'm more than happy, if it offends your literary sense, to use another word that you prefer, but changing the word, or keeping it, won't mean the problem doesn't exist.

eta: This was a response to marmac, cross-posted with Fuzz, who gets it.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:25 AM
 
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If somebody moves to a rural area and complains about the neighbor's lights, they should have purchased more land so their neighbor's lights doesn't affect them.

Heck, a neighboring high school is--9 miles away--yet their lights ( when there is a home football game or home track meet) are visible.

Even though they certainly don't shine on my property-------perhaps I should get all worked up and act like a " pretend farmer" or " homesteader" and call them to complain.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
1,872 posts, read 5,838,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
If somebody moves to a rural area and complains about the neighbor's lights, they should have purchased more land so their neighbor's lights doesn't affect them.
If somebody wants to light up all their yard like daytime, they should move to an urban area.

Quote:
Heck, a neighboring high school is--9 miles away--yet their lights ( when there is a home football game or home track meet) are visible.
Must be tough having a game up in the sky, eh?

Quote:
Even though they certainly don't shine on my property-------perhaps I should get all worked up and act like a " pretend farmer" or " homesteader" and call them to complain.
If it doesn't bother you, nobody's asking you to complain. All we're saying is for you to realize that maybe it does impact somebody else. It's not a matter of rights, it's a matter of courtesy to others.

If I'm blasting loud rap music in my yard and it spills over to a neighbor, it would bother them -- there may even be a noise ordinance preventing me from doing so, even though it is on my property. Now replace "loud rap music" with "bright light".
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:45 AM
 
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----" impact somebody else "---

read Broken Tap's post.

Seems like that woman was stating wind towers would----" impact"-- her view also.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:57 AM
 
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In our county there are many 400ft freestall dairy barns ( open sides in summer) that have lights on 24/7 ( dimmer switch used at night ) plus a yardlight. They don't shine on a neighbor's land, but are visible for miles.

I would love to see their reaction if a guy drove in their yard and said----" I'm a homesteader who bought 5 acres down the road and your lights are interfering with my star gazing "----


The reply might be to move to a place more suitable for star gazing
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
1,872 posts, read 5,838,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
read Broken Tap's post.
I don't know the woman in Broken Tap's post, so I cannot comment without knowing all the facts. But yes, if you live in a community with others around, many of our actions do impact others. Instead of digging in and proclaiming our "rights", maybe it would be better if we figured out a way to accommodate each other. I tend to think that that is what makes for a community.

Again, please read what I (and others) have posted. I'm not saying that all lighting should be banned. The stadium is spending all this money lighting up the sky - what for? The game is being played on the ground - point the light towards the ground, save energy costs, and save the night sky for those of us who do appreciate it.
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