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Old 02-06-2010, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,489 posts, read 38,407,488 times
Reputation: 23086

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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
It contradicts a previous posters claim that the Hispanics in her town are 3rd and 4th generations of living in the US .
No, it doesn't. It simply states what percentage of residents are of Latin American origin and born outside of the country.

You didn't answer my questions, by the way, in the statement above. Was it because honest answers to them would perhaps prove you wrong?
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:46 PM
 
9,807 posts, read 13,685,341 times
Reputation: 8170
----" a handfull of people who might have been illegals left ot were deported"---

Might have been illegals ?

I didn't know people get deported cuz they might be illegals .
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:13 AM
 
11,257 posts, read 44,325,691 times
Reputation: 15083
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
----" a handfull of people who might have been illegals left ot were deported"---

Might have been illegals ?

I didn't know people get deported cuz they might be illegals .
Several of the workers left of their own free will before an investigation could be completed, so it's unknown if they were illegals. The INS alleged that they had duplicated SS numbers, but there remained the question as to whether or not it was an error or fraud. Even here in the wilds of the Western USA, there's something called "due process", but the people left voluntarily rather than go through that. Maybe they were illegal, maybe they had other problems which they didn't want to risk facing ....

The "raid" did find a small number of people with phony or duplicated SS numbers and less than verifiable paperwork ... and they were deported when their documents didn't prove them to be legal in the USA.

And yes, we've seen more than one episode of aggressive INS enforcement deporting people to Mexico who were in fact USA citizens but didn't have proper documentation to that effect. They were deported because they "might be" illegals, but were, in fact, from Southern Colorado or New Mexico .... from isolated communities that speak only Spanish and follow a local culture derived from Spanish Land Grant days. They came to this area for the same reason that many people have ... to get a paying job because they don't have work "back home" ... and there is a large enough community in this area of people and services who speak their language and where they can integrate into the community for housing, church, social life, and work. Maybe even to join relatives who have moved here before them.


Interesting to note that you've never responded about the real issues of substance that I've brought out in this thread about NAIS such as brand inspections, animal tracking, etc .... you are instead focused upon your ignorant prejudice, fears, and parsing words about this topic.
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:45 PM
 
1,297 posts, read 3,158,608 times
Reputation: 1506
I was going to make some points on this, such as a pretty good outbreak of EEE in my own town thanks to the Amish who do not believe in vaccinations of horses and who have hauled many in from MO last year...

But to be honest with you, what is the point? I have argued NAIS to death in that without it, someday it is seriously going to impact my way of life as a producer. The Homesteaders insist NAIS is going to seriously impact their way of life as people with a family cow...

With such strong feelings on each side, arguing will only result in pages of useless points that neither side will consider.

Either way we have more important USDA issues to link up and repel, like Pelosi's back door approach to allow illegal immigrants who are engaged in agriculture to have citizen amnesty. With so many people out of jobs, and a desire to be start-up farmers at an all time high, this is the last thing micro, small and mid-sized agriculture needs. This is a push by mega agriculture to continue to use inexpensive labor to exploit their economics of scale over the rest of us. This is going through as the smoke of national health care obliterates some important pieces of legislation.

And the USDA has already worked things out with the IRS to solidify "eligibility requirements". This was designed to stop mega-farm corporations from hitting the 1/2 million dollar limits and other high dollar limits, but let's be reasonable, the mega farms would not have very good attorney's and accountants if they could not skate by those rules via loopholes. What really is going to happen is the small farmers who might not reach the required minimum income requirements for certain subsidies and programs, will no longer be eligible. That is going to put the squeeze on the farmers that need the money the most...and who need assistance for measures in soil, water, forest, farmland and wildlife conservation measures.

It is this simple, people are worried about the USDA coming out to look at their family cow, when they now have the right to look at your W-2 and Schedule F Tax Returns...a far more scary situation!
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,489 posts, read 38,407,488 times
Reputation: 23086
You know, I've noticed two people now ignoring the fact that there are people in the business other than "Homesteaders" (used pejoratively, I notice, in this case) who object to NAIS for a variety of reasons.

I've also noticed that nothing has been responded to regarding the fact that pretty much the exact program with pretty much the exact same "reasons" given for it in Australia is turning out to be a disaster for the ranchers and farmers there (not "homesteaders", either).

I also notice that the entire issue of civil rights is being ignored. So I'm going to pull out one of my favorite quotes that's VERY pertinent here:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:07 PM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,853 posts, read 30,801,218 times
Reputation: 22404
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Good news for small holders.

U.S.D.A. Will Drop Program to Trace Livestock - NYTimes.com

snippet:
"Faced with stiff resistance from ranchers and farmers, the Obama administration has decided to scrap a national program intended to help authorities quickly identify and track livestock in the event of an animal disease outbreak."
HOORAY!!!!!! THREE CHEERS!!!!!!

Now if we can just get them to outlaw genetically modified organisms we'll really have something to celebrate.

20yrsinBranson
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:23 PM
 
1,297 posts, read 3,158,608 times
Reputation: 1506
Not really THL...over on the sheep list there is a sheep farmer from Australia that is constantly chiding us US Sheep Farmers for not having the systems they have down there to combat large scale outbreaks. Even then it is hard to compare our system of agriculture, to their system. Here a large scale sheep farmer might have 1200-5000 sheep. In Australia a large sheep farmer has 25,000 head of sheep. Such common things as footrot and lockjaw are almost unheard of because down there the Government will quarantine an entire farm until the problem is dealt with. Their system is far more restrictive...for a reason, but NAIS certainly was no where near as restrictive as Australia. Making that parallel was pretty silly.

What you really need to do is talk to my USDA Scrapie Program Vet and his wife who had the unfortunate job of being sent over to the UK to deal with the Hoof and Mouth outbreak. You have to hear the stories of the carnage that came out of that country to get an appreciation for what the UK did and how antiquated we are in the US. He is a solid Republican like I am, but he supports NAIS and Scrapie not because it ensures him a job, but because he has seen what happens to producers when their herds and flocks are quarantined and destroyed by the thousands.

And to be honest with you, NAIS it is not that big of a deal to comply with. US sheep and Goat Producers, large and small, have been required to comply with Scrapie Eradication Procedures for many years and even then Maine was one of the last states to join up.NAIS was based on the successful Scrapie Program. And the reason for the Scrapie Program is simple, if US Producers do not reach certain mile stones in regards to Scrapie, we will not be able to export lamb to other countries as deemed by the WTO. Obviously that would be suicidal for US sheep and Goat producers. It is only a matter of time before beef producers and pork are required to obtain the same WTO requirements.

Finally with a ewe that got a Scrapie trace-back due to being in the USDA Scrapie Program, I can assure you being able to track diseased animals is very important. In my case, the white faced ewe, from a state that has very little incidences of Scrapie, was a shock. Without the Scrapie Program in place, I would have never known that ewe was identified as a potential carrier. Incidentally this ewe came from a show-sheep operation and NOT a production flock. There was absolutely no reason anyone should have suspected her of having Scrapie. In short...the system does work.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
You know, I've noticed two people now ignoring the fact that there are people in the business other than "Homesteaders" (used pejoratively, I notice, in this case) who object to NAIS for a variety of reasons.

I've also noticed that nothing has been responded to regarding the fact that pretty much the exact program with pretty much the exact same "reasons" given for it in Australia is turning out to be a disaster for the ranchers and farmers there (not "homesteaders", either).

I also notice that the entire issue of civil rights is being ignored. So I'm going to pull out one of my favorite quotes that's VERY pertinent here:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:26 PM
 
Location: The Woods
17,094 posts, read 22,611,642 times
Reputation: 9373
BrokenTap: NAIS was too restrictive, too broad, etc. Just taking a horse off one's own property would require reporting. You could in theory keep chickens and rabbits and other livestock without registering, reporting, etc., but you couldn't buy them to begin with without doing so, and if you even moved to a new home you'd have to register, or even take an animal to the vet from my reading of it. NAIS was absolutely written for the mega-producers. Plenty of Vermont farmers opposed it. It wasn't just "homesteader" types opposing it. It would have been a burden for the farmers here. NAIS is totally unnecessary, maintain your own detailed records in the event of a problem, and demand the same of your supplier.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: The Woods
17,094 posts, read 22,611,642 times
Reputation: 9373
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson View Post
HOORAY!!!!!! THREE CHEERS!!!!!!

Now if we can just get them to outlaw genetically modified organisms we'll really have something to celebrate.

20yrsinBranson
Read some of the other posts. They did a bait and switch. They "ended" NAIS, and created a new program about the exact same thing by a different name....so now the fight will have to be done again in every state...
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Old 02-07-2010, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,489 posts, read 38,407,488 times
Reputation: 23086
Sorry, through my horse connections (not on a forum) I know several people in Australia who have spoken to me about the problems that their equivalent of NAIS (NLIS) has caused there.

I can, however, provide you with some information.

Australian Beef Association on effectiveness of NLIS - 2006.

Australian Beef Association NLIS Report June 2009


There are quite a few other links I could provide, but that's a start.

I agree that being able to trace animals with problems is important. You do realize that there are already programs in place that do that, right?
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