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Ah yes, nothing like those pleasant little local acoustic cover bands...
We hear all sorts of vague assurances about development nearby, but no firm numbers. Which, in my mind, is about as reassuring as the vague promises delivered by a beer commercial. We're putting up a firm financial commitment--they're just kind of handwaving about how awesome it will be, and folks like CeJeH can't provide any numbers--just condescending rants about how clueless, awful and boring we are.
If we look at other cities, no, brand spanking new arenas don't give developers incentive to stick shovels in the ground, unless they are also getting a handout for their shovel-sticking. It's a net loss. People criticize the K Street mall, but it was developed to do exactly the same thing--bring people to a downtown that had just been deliberately emptied of people, but not to live, just to spend money and leave. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
If I offer to give you $100, it's not a good deal if I'm asking you deliver $200 to me in return. Want the people of Sacramento to support a deal? Offer a deal that asks more of the private sector than the public.
Completely forgot my other logical-fallacy exposing point! Sorry I have a tendency to rant if you couldn't tell. Naysayers claim that their money should not go to an Arena that they don't support to house a team that they don't care about that plays in an arena that they will never visit. I see your point there, but let me offer a counter-point or 2. Is that all right? If I may...
1. You're not the only people that live here
- last time I checked there's nearly 2.5 million people that live in the Sacramento region. 2.2-2.5, whatever. Point is this arena is not for you, it's for everybody. And even if you park downtown more than others, everyone who parks downtown pays the same price for the same service. Many of these 2.2 million American Humans that occupy the general vicinity are Kings fans, who, unlike you, take time out of their lives and dollars out of their pockets to come out and support their favorite team. I personally would like them to do so downtown. Parking is probably gonna be tight anyway if things are going well, right? Might as well get used to it.
2. We pay taxes as citizens, but don't get to choose where the $ goes
- I have lived here for all of my 2.5+ decades of existence. I spend $ here. I make $ here. I have NEVER; not 1 time, used public transportation. No buses, no light rail, nothing. Does that mean that my tax dollars should be exempt from paying for these things? Does this mean that these things should be abolished? NO! They are there for everybody's use! If you choose not to use them, then too bad! How many redevelopment projects have used funds from the city's general fund over the years that affected a very small portion of people? I can't think of which 1 off the top of my head because I am tired and lazy, but in the last few years 1 of those old decrepit brick extended stay cheap motels in the DTP vicinity got a nice sprucing up, thanks to a whole pile of dollars out of city coffers. Millions of them, in fact I think it was in the 10-20mm range if I'm not mistaken. Does that mean everybody gets to take turns staying there? NO! This is a low/affordable income housing project. You want to complain about "welfare queens" where was the outrage about this?! It's all fine and good when everybody's $ gets used for something that you like or use regularly, but soon as its used for something you don't like then, well I guess it's time to throw a ****fit. Seems logical, right?
Public funds get used for lots of projects, both big and little, that benefit small %s of the population, and you don't have the right or the power to go out and stop them just because you're scared or flying and will never use the airport, or you don't have a drivers license and can't drive so you don't care about a road getting fixed. These things are done for the benefit of the community as a whole, and whether you like it or not a sports and entertainment complex is something that benefits the community as a whole.
Also, if you guys bring up that small ****ty useless arena in Stockton again, I'm going to vomit. We already have an NBA team. That arena was built for minor league hockey and an arena football team that was in a new league that went bankrupt. Big concerts and trade shows don't stop by Stockton on their way through California because its not a major city. Sacramento, on the other hand, is indeed a major city!!! Whether you like it or not!! We can support a world class arena that Stockton and Modesto and Red Bluff could not! Don't compare us to Stockton or Los Angeles or Tokyo, try comparing us to places that are similar in size, maybe!
Ah yes, nothing like those pleasant little local acoustic cover bands...
We hear all sorts of vague assurances about development nearby, but no firm numbers. Which, in my mind, is about as reassuring as the vague promises delivered by a beer commercial. We're putting up a firm financial commitment--they're just kind of handwaving about how awesome it will be, and folks like CeJeH can't provide any numbers--just condescending rants about how clueless, awful and boring we are.
If we look at other cities, no, brand spanking new arenas don't give developers incentive to stick shovels in the ground, unless they are also getting a handout for their shovel-sticking. It's a net loss. People criticize the K Street mall, but it was developed to do exactly the same thing--bring people to a downtown that had just been deliberately emptied of people, but not to live, just to spend money and leave. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
If I offer to give you $100, it's not a good deal if I'm asking you deliver $200 to me in return. Want the people of Sacramento to support a deal? Offer a deal that asks more of the private sector than the public.
Ya know, there might be a good reason why those developers haven't committed to an anything yet as far as investments in the area around the arena. Hell, maybe even a good reason? It might have something to do with the fact that THE DAMN TEAM STILL ISN'T GUARANTEED TO GET SOLD TO THEM YET!!! Ugh
You don't accumulate billions or even hundreds of millions of dollars in personal wealth by jumping to conclusions and making rushed decisions! It would probably not be a great idea to start kick starting plans and fincancing projects to compliment an arena that isn't even guaranteed to get built now, would it? Do you really expect them to roll out a $100 million dollars+ development plan to surround a new arena for a team that they don't even own yet? That's ludicrous! C'mon man is that really your argument against them at this point? They haven't even had an opportunity to sign papers yet and you're already assuming they're out to screw everybody? They couldn't possibly be smart, prudent businessmen that are waiting for the right opportunity to start investing in a potential market that's starting to crawl out of the largest economic downturn in 80 years? Jesus.
By the way, why is giving developers who might not otherwise develop here handouts a bad thing? They have a word for that kind of thing if I'm remembering correctly, I believe it's subsidies? That sounds right. These are incentives that cities give to businessman who wouldn't otherwise do business in order to ensure that their business gets done HERE, and not elsewhere. Last time I checked, Sacramento has seen a whole lot of business leaving in recent years, and not a whole lot of new business moving in. Perhaps decades of hiking up taxes and doing other business-unfriendly things has something to do with that? Maybe giving developers incentives to come here and build some **** isn't the worst idea? Maybe having something big and awesome downtown that's designed to drag people back to the core might inspire some of those people to look around and say "hey, maybe this place ain't so bad? I like it here. I think I'd like to live here!"?!?! Perhaps we could combine those 2 concepts into something that's bigger than a basketball arena, and start some shovels moving in the railyard, and the Richards Blvd area and in some of the many empty lots downtown. Shovels that will lead to housing down the road! Housing that will bolster a floundering downtown population into a steady, stable population of working professionals and young people that will strengthen downtowns core and ensure the economic viability of our city for decades to come!
The railyard isn't going to spontaneously develop. We've tried that, and the result is a big empty pile of dirt. Decades worth of it. Maybe, just maybe, this arena is the key to sparking all of this into action. Maybe, just maybe, turning down 100s of millions of doll hairs in the downtown core is only going to lead to 4 more decades of nothing! Maybe this is our best shot. Maybe we should take it, quit bickering about it and find the best way to change our city for the better. I think the future of our city depends on it.
Sorry for all the typos I'm on a phone and type too fast. You know, maybe you guys were right. Arco/Sleep Train is just fine! I mean it has a basketball court, what more do they need?! Whiny ass.. Oh wait
Here's the specific review of "Sleep Train Ampitheater" ( could it possibly be more aptly named?). This is straight from a neutral 3rd party website in case you're wondering.
God I can do this all day. Maybe all the point that I've spent the last 2 hours typing out freestyle will be more convincing for you in print form, perhaps?
That link is a write up/review of an article written recently by Dan Kaplan of Sports Business Journal based out of New York, which is a subscription-only site. Once again, another 3rd party source commenting about how good of a deal this is for Sacramento and how serious this potential ownership group is about doing things right.
I implore all of you arena naysayers to actually read the links that I have posted, and actually do your own research, and then pick it apart and come back at me about how stupid and crazy I am for having faith and believing that this is the moment we have been waiting for. Or, you j ow, maybe you guys could come up with a better idea, perhaps? Since you all seem to know what's beat for us why not let us in on the secret?
Downtown arena will spur retail, housing development
The news last week that the National Basketball Association’s relocation committee had voted to reject the Sacramento Kings'move to Seattle got retail expert Garrick Brown enthusiastically talking about the commercial real estate impact.
If the Kings ultimately stay and a new arena is built downtown for the team, Brown, research director for Terranomics Retail Services and Cassidy Turley Northern California, said there will be a “flurry of retail and multifamily development downtown.”
With the economy gradually recovering and cities needing help after redevelopment agencies were eliminated statewide, “the timing will be perfect for get some momentum going on here,” Brown told the Business Journal.
Overnight, he said, downtown land prices will spike. High-end retailers that usually locate in regional malls and lifestyle centers will want a spot on K Street, he said.
Around the arena there will be a shift from mom-and-pop stores and discounters to high-end retailers, Brown said.
“This changes the game overnight,” he said.
Sacramento lacks identity, and hasn't been able to brand itself, he said. So a new downtown arena and the development that will occur around the facility, Brown said, will give Sacramento an opportunity to build a brand. During NBA playoffs, TV viewers get to see the skylines of the cities that are competing. If the Kings gain some success on the court as well, imagine the extra attention Sacramento can attract, especially after such a Cinderella story of trying to keep the team.
If Sacramento lost that national attention from having an NBA team, it would have been bad, Brown noted.
“I don’t know a city where it’s been so crucial to the economic development than our city,” he said.
“This is Miracle on K Street,” Brown said, playing off the name of the 1947 Christmas classic movie called “Miracle on 34th Street.”
And making reference to Sacramento Mayor Kevin Johnson, who has led efforts to keep the team, Brown added, “KJ is Santa Claus.”
In a similar vein, downtown Sacramento developer David Taylor told the Business Journal last week that there’s new energy in developing downtown, thanks to the belief that the Kings will stay and be housed in a new arena.
But there’s still plenty of unknowns in the keeping the Kings saga, as we write in this week’s print edition.
The NBA Board of Governors is expected to determine the fate of the Kings next week.
In other news about the Kings, the Sacramento group of investors has put down 50 percent of the price offered for the team in escrow, according to the Sacramento Bee. But there’s also a group suing the city of Sacramento with claims of secret subsidies to developers. The Bee also talks numbers: how much is the public contribution to a new arena? Depends.
CeJeH/Pistola,
Thanks for your posts. One has to counter-argue every Arenaphobes misinformed, ignorant, biased arguments.
I've been in Houston for the last week on business with my partner, and numerous times I've encountered that, "Sacramento, where's that? response. But, interestingly, they know Sacramento in relation to the Kings. The branding is real and effective.
Other responses about Sacramento, “oh, doesn't the economy really suck out there because of extreme regulation by nimby-socialists”? Seriously, I've come across this from some people.
I've worn my KINGS Jersey to bars, an NBA playoff game, parks and restaurants. Responses and Reactions: “Sacramento Kings! Great basketball town! They used to be good at one time? Aren't they moving to Seattle? Too bad!”.
CeJeH/Pistola,
Thanks for your posts. One has to counter-argue every Arenaphobes misinformed, ignorant, biased arguments.
I've been in Houston for the last week on business with my partner, and numerous times I've encountered that, "Sacramento, where's that? response. But, interestingly, they know Sacramento in relation to the Kings. The branding is real and effective.
Other responses about Sacramento, “oh, doesn't the economy really suck out there because of extreme regulation by nimby-socialists”? Seriously, I've come across this from some people.
I've worn my KINGS Jersey to bars, an NBA playoff game, parks and restaurants. Responses and Reactions: “Sacramento Kings! Great basketball town! They used to be good at one time? Aren't they moving to Seattle? Too bad!”.
I remember being in NYC during the glory years when the taxi driver asked us where we were coming from? Our response was Sacramento. He responded with "Yes, you guys have a great basketball team...the Kings! That arena you guys play in is so loud."
It was a great time to be a Kings fan, that year they went to the Western Conference Finals, which they ultimately lost. But the national attention Sacramento was receiving was incredible. And I will say this, if the Kings would have been bad during those years, I'd think most outsiders would say Arco Arena is crap and outdated. But the fact that there was a great basketball team on display and soldout crowds at Arco shifted the focus to the amazing atmosphere instead of "it's time for a new arena" No one complained about Arco when the team was winning.
If the Kings would have won the NBA championship in 2002, who knows the Kings today probably would have been playing at a new arena, most likely in Natomas.
100% would have had a new arena with the same douche owners a long time ago. And nobody would have complained. That's the great thing about these naysayers: almost all of their arguments against the Kings hinge upon the teams success, or lack thereof. In the early 2000s you couldnt find anybody around here that had bad things to say about the Kings, but as soon as they started losing again all these horrible front-running fair weather trolls crawled back out of their holes to claim that since the team sucked we shouldn't build them an arena and should send them packing. If we didn't get robbed in 2002 and won the Championship like we should have, the arena would never have been nearly as big of an issue as it is now.
They have no problem "supporting" a good team, but the moment they cease to be good it's time for the team to go!
The downtown development stuff is, indeed, pretty exciting. Whether that will justify the subsidy, remains to be seen, but I think that has to be the hope. If the whales have the right incentive, and maybe they can convince KJ about what it would take to start attracting more business and more investment into the center city, then we're cookin'. It's not too far-fetched when you have a couple of billionaires with a huge stake in the success of the team and the success of downtown, including a couple with big ties to high-tech firms. You're 100 miles from the most successful high-tech enterprises in the world, we have access to educated people, lower rents, a far lower cost of living, and, conceivably, plenty of places your employees might want to live without commuting for an hour and a half. That's my hope and the kind of cascading development that would make this a big win. It's not enough for me to gamble a big piece of general fund, but it's something.
All that said, I fail to understand why so many of Sacramentans care about how other people from other places perceive us. This isn't the perspective of someone "who's stuck in the past and want to remain a cow town" or whatever. I just really don't understand why we should care or why I should somehow internalize these things. I never run out of things to do here, and people who visit always have a great time. And sheesh--especially hearing it from people from Houston--which we all know is full of fat, sweaty people in cowboy hats.
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