Has anyone moved to Sacramento and regretted it? (Paradise, El Dorado Hills: schools, live in)

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Ludachris

In any event, this has gotten way off topic. Let's get back to finding out who has moved to Sacramento and regretted it - and the reasons why. We can start a new thread about assimilation in a more appropriate forum. Because there are several more points that could be posted and discussed.

Agreed! As I stated early-on in this thread, I don't regret moving here, per se, but it will be nice to move elsewhere. Sacramento has a lot to offer and moving here was a very good career move for me. I've always enjoyed capitol cities because there's an energy and intrigue about them and for a political and legislative analyst I couldn't have been in a better place. No less important is that this is where I met my wife and five of our combined children and six of our nine grandchildren live in or relatively near Sacramento.

I have also had the good fortune to have lived elsewhere -- seven other states and three other countries. That has given me a broad perspective and I can make knowing choices about where I end up. Over the years it became apparent to me that Sacramento is not my desired retirement location for a number of reasons having more to do with politics, crime and demographics than the physical characteristics of the area or the character of most of the residents. I will be leaving gladly but will have fond memories of my almost 20 years here.

[Ludachris]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

After much hemming and hawing, Curmudgeon presented data from the Census Bureau. Unfortunately for him, the data contradicted his assertion that immigrants don't speak English, and indirectly proved my counter-argument that immigrants (at least 60% of them) are in fact bilingual (at the very least). So, there you go. No need for speculation here; we actually have statistical data to refute the original assertion and support mine.

Nice of Curmudgeon to post data to back up your assertions, since you chose not to.

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Can you explain to me again how that is an insult? Or is this just a case of feigning victimhood to gain sympathy? And who appointed you the anti-insult police?

Oh I'm sorry, did I mistake your intention? Were you not trying to insult Curmudgeon with your comments? Now you're insulting the intelligence of everyone reading this thread. Here's the definition of insult:
insult definition | Dictionary.com

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

So, attacking an entire group of people (ie immigrants) is kosher to you, while pointing out that a bilingual person (all else being equal) is likely to be smarter than a monolingual one is now an insult? Which planet did this concept come from?

Not at all. I didn't justify what Curmudgeon said. In fact, I don't even share the sentiment of his statement of not wanting to live in an area where English-speaking Americans appear to be the minority. I just chose not to counter his statement with a personal attack like you did. Two wrongs don't make a right - you ever heard that one before? Or is that concept alien to you as well?

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Since you have appointed yourself the anti-insult police then, sure, I am obligated to respond to you and to point out the error in your thinking. Facts are facts; what emotional impact these facts have on you doesn't change their factuality.

Is it a fact that I've appointed myself to the anti-insult police? Or is that another fact that you're pointing out amongst all those other factual tidbits sprinkled in your confrontational posts?

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

If the fact that bilingual and multilingual kids are likely to be smarter than monolingual ones feels insulting to you, then tough luck.

Ahhh, but you see, you weren't comparing children with other children. You were comparing children with Curmudgeon, who is far from a child. You were insulting his intelligence by comparing his intellect with that of a child. And here you keep dancing around what you said and how you said it in an attempt and make it appear that I don't understand that some children are smarter than others. I'm just being too sensitive, reading into your posts too much, right? And then you continue on with comments like:

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Deal with it. There's nothing I can do to make you feel better otherwise.

Keep being condescending. You're doing a grand job at solidifying your image. You've made the points you wanted to make the way you wanted to make them. We can all "deal with it". There's obviously no use in trying to get you to see the similarities between your posts and that of an internet troll. Some people just need an outlet where they can treat others like crap - I imagine it makes them feel better.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Wait....the data comes from the Census Bureau. It was presented by no other than Curmudgeon himself. Unfortunately, the data contradicts his (and your) contention about the alleged lack of English skills of immigrants. So now the data is skewed? Obviously, you guys simply toss away data that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. That doesn't make for a very intelligent discussion, does it?

and you believe all that comes from the census bureau? I am not even going to go there, I will just say, it is one branch of the government that I do not trust!!!!

Nita

[ndfmnlf]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Ludachris

Nice of Curmudgeon to post data to back up your assertions, since you chose not to.

Why should I produce the data when I didn't make the original assertion? You need to brush up on the concept of burden of proof.

Oh I'm sorry, did I mistake your intention? Were you not trying to insult Curmudgeon with your comments? Now you're insulting the intelligence of everyone reading this thread.

Boo hoo. So Curmudgeon felt insulted by my statement of fact. Cry me a river.

Not at all. I didn't justify what Curmudgeon said. In fact, I don't even share the sentiment of his statement of not wanting to live in an area where English-speaking Americans appear to be the minority. I just chose not to counter his statement with a personal attack like you did. Two wrongs don't make a right - you ever heard that one before? Or is that concept alien to you as well?

And the personal attack was....pointing out that a multilingual person is likely smarter than a monolingual one? That's all you got?

Ahhh, but you see, you weren't comparing children with other children. You were comparing children with Curmudgeon, who is far from a child. You were insulting his intelligence by comparing his intellect with that of a child.

Ohh, so now the "insult" has evolved into Curmudgeon being compared to a child. From being insulted for comparing Curmudgeon to a multilingual person to being insulted for comparing him to a child - you sure play the victimology card quite adeptly. I'm starting to suspect you are a professional victimologist.

But I'm not even sure what there is to be offended about. I would even submit that a multilingual child (and by child I mean anyone up to the age of 18) might in fact be a lot smarter than Curmudgeon. Why the heck not? Nowhere is it written that adults are automatically smarter than kids. Can you show me scientific data which says an adult is automatically entitled to smartness over a child, and that suggesting otherwise should be considered an insult to adults?

And here you keep dancing around what you said and how you said it in an attempt and make it appear that I don't understand that some children are smarter than others. I'm just being too sensitive, reading into your posts too much, right? And then you continue on with comments like:

You are reading into my posts too much. This is the result of your penchant for playing the victimology card. Get over it.

[ndfmnlf]

Originally Posted by nmnita

and you believe all that comes from the census bureau? I am not even going to go there, I will just say, it is one branch of the government that I do not trust!!!!

Nita

If you suspect the government and Census Bureau are deliberately trying to deceive you with false data, then I can't help you there. Sorry, but I think you've got bigger epistemological problems to resolve (eg did the government lie about the existence of UFOs?) than your doubts about the veracity of the ethnolinguistic profile of the US.

[Curmudgeon]

And once again back to the original issue at hand, since it seems what has become my own personal butt-shark, who doesn't comprehend that calling people liars when they don't agree with him isn't insulting and needs to get over himself, has surfaced once more, I would surmise that the reasons most people leave Sacramento have less to do with regret than they do with other factors -- finances, job placements, family issues, etc. A number came here to pursue careers but will be glad to return "home." I've lived in places I couldn't wait to leave, so I did. I regretted ever having moved to them even though they were work-related moves. That's not the case in Sacramento. Otherwise I wouldn't have stayed for almost 20 years. I will be glad to leave but I don't regret having lived here. I will simply be happier someplace else.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

If you suspect the government and Census Bureau are deliberately trying to deceive you with false data, then I can't help you there. Sorry, but I think you've got bigger epistemological problems to resolve (eg did the government lie about the existence of UFOs?) than your doubts about the veracity of the ethnolinguistic profile of the US.

you need to get a life..let's put it this way, I know who they have hired to do the senses this year and some they did not hire: I also know they will, like anything else, they can minipulate when they want to: false, i won't go that far, slant, yes, but you only see one side of everything, so I am going to bow out now and let you spout off to others.

Nita

[ndfmnlf]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

These assimilation threads are based on NOT understanding the true reality of immigration.

GENERALLY SPEAKING...first generation immigrants SELDOM EVER become FLUENT native English speakers...when you are an ADULT...it is nearly impossible to suddenly speak like a native by moving into a new country...mainly because you MUST WORK...and PROVIDE for a family...you don't have time and money to sit around college campuses or taking tons of intensive language courses to become like a native speaker.

INSTEAD...it is THEIR KIDS who become bilingual and completely functional in ENGLISH (i.e. the NATIVE LANGUAGE of the country).

This is not strange or unusual. American had a large gap of time where few immigrants were arriving...i.e. during the 1940s and 1950s..most of 1960s for that matter. So there was a generation where people were mostly 2nd or 3rd generation or much deeper roots.

However, my grandfather who was born in Michigan in 1900 recalls his GERMAN grandfather who ONLY SPOKE GERMAN...my grandfather couldn't speak to him...he needed his DAD who was 2nd generation German and BILINGUAL in ENglish and German to translate. THIS WAS COMMON IN THE UNITED STATES!!!!

As a personal aside, I've lived in ASIA for years now, teaching English. Most immigrants spend tons of time and money trying to learn English..but it is a difficult process. I've been living in Korea & Japan for years...and met MANY Koreans in particular who would meet me and say 'YOU ARE IN KOREA, YOU MUST NOW ONLY SPEAK KOREAN' as I sat talking with other white people in a subway or train. WHY must I speak Korean just because I'm in Korea? Why can't I speak English with other native English-speakers when I see them and want to speak English?

Honestly speaking, I use to think Korea and Koreans were the most backward annoying hicks for making such statements...but when I read these boards on the United States forums...after years of defending Americans and America for being more tolerant and educated...sometimes I realize that its all just the same ignorant stuff all over the world.

I suspect that native born Americans who speak only English feel threatened by a person from another country who speaks English AND their home language. After all, the bilingual immigrant has an extra skill that the native born doesn't have.

The immigrant can navigate in American social circles because he speaks English, but he can also thrive among his own subculture. The bilingual immigrant can talk in his own language in front of the monolingual American, and the latter would not be able to understand what is being said. The immigrant could have been telling jokes about the American, and the latter would have been clueless about it.

On the other hand, the American can not do the same to the immigrant since the immigrant understands English. It is this asymmetry that creates anxiety for the monolingual American. The inability to understand another language can be quite disorienting. It breeds paranoia. The movie Babel captures this sense of disorientation very well.

Hence, the desire of some native born Americans to withdraw from diverse multilingual communities like Sacramento, and to retreat into comforting cultural environments like all-white monolingual rural Missouri. It cures their paranoia.

[robertpolyglot]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

the physical characteristics of the area

Bingo. As other posts have mentioned, the Sacto. metro area is far from nice when compared to the Bay Area, So Cal and the SD areas. Simply put, it's because it's the Central Valley. It is the only 1+ million pop. metro area in the Central Valley and the only one in Calif. that's affordable to most people.

It is NOT a physically appealing area. Whether crossing over the north end on 80 or crossing through the bottom of town and eastward on 50, it is bleak. It is a big missed opportunity in city planning -- to lay out a nice area at the confluence of two rivers and to lay out a nice capital city scheme. There are nice suburbs to the east of town, in the two adjacent counties of Placer and El Dorado, but they are far away from the jobs and lack personality.

People tout Sacramento's redeeming value in that it's "close to everything" -- the Bay Area or the Sierra Nevada. However, they don't tout anything about Sacramento itself. So, if Sacramento existed in the middle of the Central Valley and was NOT in proximity to anything nice, would people still like it? Doubtful.

[robertpolyglot]

Originally Posted by Majin

that nearly everybody in this thread complaining about Sac are all ones that moved out to state to some small town in the south (like the above poster- Cary NC???). This isn't about Sac at all, it's a dislike of California.

Cary NC is a very popular area in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill NC metro area which also has over 1 million people. Everyone I know that has relocated to this area, Westerners included, rave about it. The large Southeastern cities have a lot to offer, having lived in Atlanta as a transplanted Californian.