Moving to Sacramento: Neighborhood suggestions. (Vista, Davis: school, university, place to live)

[angelbug]

Originally Posted by Mr. Ozo

x15 why do you keep saying Midtown is more white than Davis? It's not, you can look up the stats right on this site. U.C. is has 45 percent Asian students, but if you took a survey of full time residents, I'd bet you Davis is 95 percent white. Plus, the Asians that go to Davis are whiter than the white people, so I wouldn't really pick Davis as the poster child for diversity.

Davis isn't even 3/4 white, according to the pie chart on city-data.com. I don't know why, but it has a reputation as being whiter than it is...I got criticized for moving here from San Francisco years ago by people who thought I was better off having neighbors I couldn't converse with because they didn't speak English. However, there isn't a lot of CULTURAL diversity here - it "feels" very white, so I understand the perception.

It's more expensive than Midtown, so if the OP wants to buy and prefers cities, it might be a better choice.

[edwardius]

There is no reason to have an argument about a fact which can be verified from reliable third party sources.

Midtown is very white, much whiter than Davis.

Look again at the links X15 pointed to.

Originally Posted by x15

I said midtown is really white. Which of course it is. Davis is more diverse, better educated, with more professionals. Davis also larger than midtown and much less car orientated.

Davis city, California - Fact Sheet - American FactFinder

95816 - Fact Sheet - American FactFinder

Carfree Database Results

In terms of what many people seem to be looking from an urban area, Davis probably does better on those traits than midtown.

This distinction you are trying to draw between working class joes and blue collar escapes me.

On the hand if some thinks Davis still isn't urban enough, Berkeley isn't that far away, especially if you only need to be in Davis a couple days a week. Look at in terms of mileage per week. If you commute from Davis to Berkeley two days a week that is about 240 (60*2*2) miles a week. The average person commuting from Fair Oaks to downtown is putting up 230 miles a week (23*2*5) which no one is this area blinks an eye about. If you are going into Davis three days a week that is 360 (60*2*3) miles, which is about the same amount that people who commute from Shingle Springs to downtown Sacramento do in an average week 350 (35*2*5).

As to commuting from Berkeley to Davis. I probably wouldn't want to make that commute. But if I had the option, I probably wouldn't want to make the commute from Sacramento to Davis either. I really don't see anything to be gained from living in midtown that you wouldn't have access to in Davis already. But if you live in Sac, you probably will want to drive to Davis, that means you have to pay for parking in Davis.

As to buying something in Sacramento. I would rent here for at least 6 months before buying here to get a lay of the land. Unemployment is over 12%, the major employer in the region is state government, whose budget is way out of whack and as the banks relax the various foreclosure moratoriums, I think its much more likely that prices will be lower in this region 12 months from now that higher. In short I think you have nothing to lose from waiting, but if you know the area better, I think you will make a much better informed decision about where to live if you have rented for six months here first.

Sacramento and Philly are very different towns. I like Sacramento, but this region is much smaller. Unlike Philly which was a big city before cars entered the picture, most of the growth in this region occured after WW2, when air conditioning made living through the summers here a lot more pleasant. So this region is much more suburban.

If you are looking for some type of urban experience, you can take a look at Davis and Midtown. The 2 or 3 sq miles of midtown and maybe 10 or 15 sq miles of Davis are pretty much it. Depending on your expectations, that might be good enough. Or it might be time to experience something new.

The region has other amenities that make the place appealing. The winters here are less harsh than back east. The summers are dry, not humid. You are close to Tahoe, Napa and SF. The wild areas in this region are still really wild. The National Parks in the western US are just better than anything on the east coast.

But if you are looking for the type of city life you had in Philly, you just aren't going to have that here. First the region is just much smaller. In Philly you have teams in all of the major sports: the NBA, the NFL, the NHL and the MLB. Here you have a professional basketball team. The region may not even be able to support that. You also don't have major college athletic programs locally either. While you can find museums or theater here, there aren't at the same level that you might find in Philly. You just don't have the population base to support that type of stuff here at that same level. If you want that type of stuff in this region, often you end up going into the bay area.

I like Sacramento. I like going skiing in winter time up at Kirkwood, I like white water rafting on the South Fork of the American River. I think its fun to go wine tasting in Napa or the Gold Country and these are probably experiences you didn't have much access to in Philly. But if the focus of my life was trying to have some sort of really intense urban existence, there are other areas of the country (such as Philly) that I think do a much better job of that then this region.

[wburg]

edwardius: Midtown is a very small portion of 95816. The vast majority of the 95816 ZIP code is East Sacramento. Everything west of 21st Street, including many things that are absolutely part of Midtown, is 95814, not 95816.

If someone said "East Sacramento is very white" I might be inclined to agree. If someone said "The 95816 portion of the central city is whiter than the 95814/11/18 portions" I might agree too. But if you are assuming that 95816 equals Midtown, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Perhaps it might help if we defined our terms. According to the city of Sacramento, "Midtown" is the region between J and R Street from 15th to 29th--an area that overlaps the 95814 and 95816 ZIP codes.

The problem is that this assumes nobody from adjoining neighborhoods has anything to do with Midtown, and that just isn't so. Most of the residential neighborhoods in the central city get described as "midtown" at one time or another. There are no physical barriers between Midtown and these adjacent neighborhoods, so trying to single out "Midtown" has always been a sticky problem--I haven't even been able to nail down exactly when or why people started calling it Midtown.

So if you're talking about the population of the old city region of Sacramento (the old street grid, roughly defined by the freeways and the rivers) one is discussing a chunk of land that is 2/3 in 95814 (and now 95811), 1/3 in 95816, and a chunk of 95818 (the southern edge of Southside, Richmond Grove, Poverty Ridge and Newton Booth.)

According to ZIPskinny, here are the stats for 95184:

White 52%
Black 13%
Hispanic 19%
Asian 9%

Here are the stats for 95816:

White 72%
Black 4%
Hispanic 14%
Asian 3%

Here are the stats for 95818:

White 55%
Black 4%
Hispanic 14%
Asian 17%

Now, here are the stats for Davis (city stats from Wikipedia)

White 70%
Black 2%
Hispanic 7%
Asian 17%

Here's Folsom:

White 78%
Black 6%
Hispanic 9%
Asian 4%

Here's Elk Grove:

White 59%
Black 8%
Hispanic 14%
Asian 17%

And here's Sacramento overall:

White 48%
Black 15%
Hispanic 21%
Asian 16%

So, what conclusions can we draw from this? Sacramento's central city is probably a bit whiter than Sacramento as a whole, but it is far from predominantly white. Individual neighborhoods vary. The 95816 ZIP code, the area including East Sacramento and the eastern one-third of Midtown, is about as white as Folsom or Davis, and whiter than Elk Grove.

About the whole economic thing: Many Midtown residents are college students, musicians and artists. Most college students, musicians and artists are not particularly wealthy, in fact a lot are flat broke, so if you're only looking at income levels, the demographic looks very working-class (blue-collar or working-class joe.) Many of these folks have working-class jobs (service sector, retail, foodservice, data entry, low-level state employee etc.) but those are just the sort of jobs that college students do, or the sort of jobs that artists and musicians take until they either make it big or decide to hang up the paintbrush/guitar. If you actually look at the neighborhood and the people, the things they do and the ways they spend their time and money, simply describing the neighborhoods as "blue-collar" is not accurate.

So there are two major inaccuracies at work here. First, if you're defining "midtown" as the 95186 ZIP code, you're not even looking at the right place. Second, if you're only looking at income level, not the neighborhood itself, describing the central city as "blue-collar" isn't accurate either.

[charles strickland]

You really should move to Citrus Heights. Citrus Heights is filled with artists, musicians and street poets. Its the most bohemian and vibrant community in the region. Its where all of the cool hip people live.

[kim racer]

I have lived in Davis and midtown. I am not white. Having lived in both places, let me give you my impressions.

If you are going to work in Davis, I really don't see what you get out of living in midtown. Davis is bigger and has a lot more stuff to do. Midtown is actually quite small. If you were working in Sac, then I could see living in midtown so you could walk to work. But since you are working in Davis, I really don't see the point in commuting in from midtown. I think you are giving up a lot more than you gain.

There is the downtown grid and there is midtown. While there are parts of the downtown grid that are diverse, places like Alkali Flat and Southside Park, those neighborhoods are pretty sketchy and really don't offer much to do after dark. When people do advocate living in midtown, generally there aren't talking about Alkali Flat or Southside Park. Instead they are talking about the part of the grid that historically has been Sacramento's gay neighborhood, places like Boulevard Park. These are the communities that have the art galleries, the restaurants and people hanging around outside after dark and after work.

But that part of the grid is really white and white bred. I think a big reason why people from Citrus Heights or Fair Oaks feel comfortable in that part of the grid and will go to the restaurants there is that its filled with the sames type of people in roughly the same ratios as Citrus Heights or Fair Oaks.

Midtown offers many things, but diversity isn't one of them. Its more of a walkable more homosexual version of Citrus Heights.

Part of the reason I left midtown and now live in Elk Grove is that I just didn't actually see many people who looked like me in midtown.

[Majin]

After reading the post above and many others like it the only thing I can conclude is that I am going to different midtown than the ones these posters are going to.

I don't even care anymore to argue with you people though I'll let wburg continue to waste his time.

I find it funny though that you nerds keep talking up Davis like it's a better version of midtown yet midtown on a Friday night has 10x more energy and 10x more people walking around having fun.

I've hung out in downtown Davis at night and it just doesn't compare to midtown, not even close. You guys are just nerds looking up stats and haven't really been out in the streets if you think otherwise.

[edwardius]

I think you are grasping at straws when you are trying to argue that midtown is a college town. The data just isn't backing you up here.

In midtown 9.9% of population is between 20 and 24 and 3% of the population is between 15 and 19 with a combined share of 12.9%. In Citrus Heights 7.9% is between 20 and 24 with another 7.5% of the population is between 15 and 19, meaning that the combined population is 15.4%.

In the ages people generally are attending college (18-25), midtown really doesn't look much different than Citrus Heights (or I suspect most communities in the region). While you can find people at all ages taking some classes at night, I am not seeing any data to suggest midtown is somehow different than any other part of the region in that regard.

95816 5-Digit ZCTA, 958 3-Digit ZCTA - DP-1. Profile of General Demographic Characteristics:**2000

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...ng=en&-_sse=on

[edwardius]

Originally Posted by Majin

After reading the post above and many others like it the only thing I can conclude is that I am going to different midtown than the ones these posters are going to.

I don't even care anymore to argue with you people though I'll let wburg continue to waste his time.

I find it funny though that you nerds keep talking up Davis like it's a better version of midtown yet midtown on a Friday night has 10x more energy and 10x more people walking around having fun.

I've hung out in downtown Davis at night and it just doesn't compare to midtown, not even close. You guys are just nerds looking up stats and haven't really been out in the streets if you think otherwise.

Powerfull words from the guy who comes here to troll for recreation.

Originally Posted by Majin

I have to admit this was one of my better trolls, if not one of the best of all time. I'm glad its so easy to get people riled up here. I'm gonna have a really fun time on this forum now that SSP seems dead.

The reason why people need to back up what they say is because people like you come here and just make stuff up.

[wburg]

Originally Posted by edwardius

I think you are grasping at straws when you are trying to argue that midtown is a college town. The data just isn't backing you up here.

I'm not trying to argue that midtown is a college town. I said that there are a lot of students, artists and musicians in the central city. Most of the artists and musicians I know aren't in college (and I know a lot of them) and most of them aren't in their early twenties either. Hell, I know a lot of Midtown artists and musicians who are in their sixties and seventies. You're trying to use statistics out of context to prove your argument without matching them up against the reality of what is actually here.

Your link to the 95816 ZIP code indicates that you either didn't read my last post or are choosing to ignore it:

95816 IS NOT JUST MIDTOWN. 95816 IS EAST SACRAMENTO, A MUCH LARGER NEIGHBORHOOD THAN MIDTOWN, AND ABOUT ONE-HALF OF MIDTOWN. STATISTICS FOR 95816 ARE NOT ACCURATE IF YOU WISH TO DESCRIBE MIDTOWN.

Continuing to use 95816 statistics as if they accurately described Midtown makes you just as comically wrong as the guy who makes up stuff about Citrus Heights being the bohemian paradise of the Sacramento Valley. At best, it's funny.

I'm not really comfortable with white-knighting Majin, but I agree with his statement that I think you kids are going to a different Midtown than he and I know. Maybe you folks just don't get invited to the right parties.

Originally Posted by kim racer

Davis is bigger and has a lot more stuff to do. Midtown is actually quite small.

"Davis is bigger" simply makes no sense and I don't understand why people keep saying that. Davis is a city of 60,000 people. Midtown is a small neighborhood within the central city, containing 30,000 people within a city of 450,000, and is pretty much the most active single place for music, art, culture and nightlife in the six county MSA, of about 2.5 million people. On weekends, people aren't driving to Davis from Folsom or Roseville or Elk Grove, except maybe to see a show at the Mondavi--and there's pretty much nothing around the Mondavi but parking lot, so after the show they're probably driving right back. Generally, the folks from these suburbs driving to the central city, either Midtown or Downtown or one of the adjacent neighborhoods, to hit a restaurant or a show or go to a club. I know, because they are the jerks clogging up my neighborhood with their cars because they're too cheap to go to a parking garage.

Claiming "Davis is bigger" assumes that every square block of Davis is identical to downtown Davis and the neighborhoods near campus, which is absolutely not true. It suggests that the Applebee's in Davis is equal to Mulvaney's B&L in Sacramento; that the truck dealerships along I-80 in Davis are equal to Capitol Park.

In other words, it's nonsense.

I will agree with kim racer's point that if the OP is looking for a short commute time, living in Davis might make the most sense. But they wanted a place with more active nightlife, and sorry, when you take Sacramento as a whole (rather than just a few blocks in a city of 100 square miles) that is simply not true.

Midtown is not a fortress. Many of the people who hang out in the specific neighborhood called "Midtown" might not live precisely in "Midtown" but they live in immediately adjacent neighborhoods like Boulevard Park or Southside or Newton Booth or Alkali Flat. They can walk to Midtown and thus are part of the same community. Some live a bit farther out, in the "dirty thirties" portion of East Sac or the Alhambra Triangle or Oak Park or Curtis Park. They can bike or take the bus to Midtown and thus are, for all practical purposes, part of the same community. You could draw that conclusion out to the greater city as a whole--I know plenty of folks who live in Elk Grove or Natomas or other outer-ring neighborhoods or cities but spend so much time in Midtown they might as well be living there. So no, we aren't just talking about this one square mile or so of neighborhood as though it were a hermetically sealed bubble. It is foolish and incorrect to do so.

[Tiger Beer]

This thread just makes me real interested in DAVIS.