Raising Children in SLC, Utah - Non LDS (Sandy: apartment, neighborhood)

[lemon&lime]

I have lived in Salt Lake three years and from my casual observation it seems that the area is in fact heavily Mormon, despite what others post on these boards about the area being so "eclectic". I have said continually on these boards how strange, off putting and ostracizing I find Salt Lake compared to other places I have lived, namely Texas and New Mexico. I am still totally stunned that people actually judge and avoid others based on their religion. How the Mormons raise their children to avoid and shun others is also hard to understand. How is that right? I would never shun anyone for any reason. To do so is fundamentally un-Christian. Yet this seems to be the normal order of business in Utah. Recently at work I had to deal with a younger Mormon who refuses to wave "hello" to me in the mornings. It's like I don't exist. This is what a lifetime of Monday family nights have done for him? He can't even extend himself and say hello to a co-worker? How perverse. And today I was at the Gateway and had to deal with a Mormon family at Barnes and Noble who stared at me icily. The rejection I deal with living here is really unreal. I'm a grown adult too. I can't imagine raising kids here. I think that would be a real mistake.

Originally Posted by westerndog

Well I have been here 8 years,--love the mountains,climate,skiing. But after waiting 8 years for the city to "change" ie become more hereogeneous religiously,I have about given up............This town is run by the LDS church.If you can accept it,it is a great place to live. If you cannot, then do not move here, in spite of the extreme verbosity and conspiracy theorists annotated in the previous postings.

Originally Posted by mrm84107

The LDS church keeps its adherents so busy with church related tasks that there is not much time for interacting either with gentiles or Mormons from different Wards. We do resent the LDS church asking its followers to be “tolerant” of non-believers. Although well meaning, the insinuation is that there is something wrong with non-LDS people. After finding out she was non-Mormon she was cut dead by the group with which she was otherwise a natural fit. They were no more intentionally being cruel than most self-centered teens, but try telling that to a broken-hearted 14 year old surrounded by strangers who could care less abut her.

[coolcats]

Originally Posted by catrinac

today I was at the Gateway and had to deal with a Mormon family at Barnes and Noble who stared at me icily.

How do you know they were Mormon? How did they know you were not? Please clarify. Thanks.

[kaytidid]

*tongue in cheek here*
They must have forgot to take off their horns before they entered Barnes and Noble.

A little disclaimer here. The following rant is not directed at any post in particular. I am just having a hard time trying to figure out what all the fuss is about.

Sorry..that was probably uncalled for, but I have lived here 14 years and came from the East Coast...not Mormon either, BTW, and I have never ever been shunned, snubbed, looked at rudely or anything of that sort. I have found rude and ignorant people all over the US, Utah is no exception. However, when dealing with a rude person, I do not take the time to question their religious beliefs. I would never know if they are being rude and are Catholic, Muslim, LDS...nor do I care. At that point, they are just rude!

I really just can't figure out what all the fuss is about. If one doesn't like it here, no one is making them stay.

My 11 year old daughter is having a squabble with her on again/off again best friend who happens to be Mormon. Are they fighting because the friend is Mormon and we are not? Nooooo.....they are fighting because of a personality clash and they are preteens. Not everything that happens in Utah is because of a religion issue, but it seems that is what people are trying to make it.

What happened to love thy neighbor?

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by catrinac

I have lived in Salt Lake three years and from my casual observation it seems that the area is in fact heavily Mormon, despite what others post on these boards about the area being so "eclectic". I have said continually on these boards how strange, off putting and ostracizing I find Salt Lake compared to other places I have lived, namely Texas and New Mexico. I am still totally stunned that people actually judge and avoid others based on their religion. How the Mormons raise their children to avoid and shun others is also hard to understand. How is that right? I would never shun anyone for any reason. To do so is fundamentally un-Christian. Yet this seems to be the normal order of business in Utah. Recently at work I had to deal with a younger Mormon who refuses to wave "hello" to me in the mornings. It's like I don't exist. This is what a lifetime of Monday family nights have done for him? He can't even extend himself and say hello to a co-worker? How perverse. And today I was at the Gateway and had to deal with a Mormon family at Barnes and Noble who stared at me icily. The rejection I deal with living here is really unreal. I'm a grown adult too. I can't imagine raising kids here. I think that would be a real mistake.

what i don't understand is how after months of posting here, you still haven't figured out, or accepted it when others have told you, that mormons aren't 'raised to avoid and shun others'. i am aware that there are rude mormons. i know that i tend to be one sometimes--comes as ignorance, not intentional negativity, i swear. but that's not what we're 'trained' to be like in the church. anyone who has done their homework, or even just gone to a sunday school class about Christ-like love or kindness, can tell you that the church, and most members that i am acquainted with, put a lot of weight on being pleasant and neighborly, in a sincere manner, with everyone.

i am amazed (or maybe, i'm amazed that i'm amazed. maybe i should be expecting it now) that you assume that rude people are mormon. i don't know how you can figure that out logically unless you are checking their temple recommends, or they are quoting moroni as they stroll past. i wonder how many nonmormons you have baptized in your head into our church just because they were rude to you--or just because you perceived that they were rude to you.

i think that just as unchristian-like as is being rude, is not forgiving and letting go (bad sentance structure...). for crying out loud, some of these people don't even realize that they're seen as rude. that is not unique to utah either. that happens in relationships. most arguments are started, and then maintained by ignorant miscommunications. almost every argument that i find myself in with my wife ends up us both arguing the same side of the story, but unable to see that because we were too caught up in our own perspective. i can say something completely innocent and friendly, and she will at times take it to mean something rude or thoughtless (for the record, i am known to make those mistakes as often as she. don't want you guys thinking you're dealing with a perfect person here...). almost all of it is a miscommunication.

you are going to find rude people all over because that is what you look for. when you finally move to a different state though, unless cali, idaho, or arizona, you're gonna have to pick a new religion that hates you, because mormons are a little scarce comparitively.

catrinac, i know this sounds harsh or rude (go figure). but you can't be happy if you keep going through life a victim. and in this sort of human interaction, you are the only one that can make you a victim.

here's an invitation, so you can meet some normal (ok, normal is not the right word for me) mormons. i am going to try to drag my wife out into the slot canyons of the desert this weekend. and even if she can't come this weekend, i go a couple of times a month (school-permitting). email me when would be good for you, and you can come with us. we won't abandon you in the desert, or drag you kicking and screaming into a primitive baptismal font. we won't even train our daughter to throw rocks at you or anything.

i hate seeing people unhappy. but i also hate seeing people perpetuate their own unhappiness.

a thought: if hiking isn't your thing, we try to do lots of activities; biking, board games, walks, frizbee football, art galleries, museums, etc are all fair game.

if anyone else needs to see what a normal mormon family can be like in relation to their nonmormon brothers and sisters, let me know. i'm open to just about anyone hiking with me (just spent 4 years with marines, so i think i can deal with the rest of you).

email is wbhgr@hotmail.com

sincerely, aaron out.

[kaytidid]

You go Aaron!!

[stycotl]

just realized a few things.

1) my email sucks. for some reason i never get half of what people send me (probably an exaggeration, but just the same). probably better to use the message system here on the forum. i check it every couple of days when i remember.

2) if you--or anyone else-- do decide to accept, there will be some logistical details we'd need to work out. just so you can feel comfortable that i'm not an internet sex predator or something, you can feel free to invite any friends you wish. those holding 2nd and 3rd degree black belts in various martial arts might stand a good chance of easing any fears you may have. i hold no black belts, but i have been known to be a good scrapper--usually out of necessity rather than actual skill.

3) if you don't accept, i'd like to know why. my tunnel vision sees two possibilities, though i am 100% sure that there are others of which i am not even remotely aware. first is that you don't really care to be all that friendly yourself. i realize that friendly doesn't mean jumping on every invitation offered, but as it seems you are currently devoid of some of the comeradery of which you would like to have. and second, is that hiking just isn't your thing. fine. already covered that we like museums, kiddie play groups (for my daughter, not me. i swear), parks, picnics, yadda, yadda...

anyway, hope you guys understand my intent here. i don't bite. don't stalk. don't do other things along those lines. i would consider myself a low-key, easy to get along with guy. i will not chew your head off or practice 'tough love'--i think doctor phil is a retard. but i will be candid, perhaps bluntly honest as i have been so far, and generally cheery.

aaron out.

[BuckeyezRule]

Nice post Aaron. It's hard for 'outsiders', ie, non LDS, not to judge. I'm not LDS, but, like I said, have made so many friends here, some LDS, some not, some, no clue. =) I've been to a few LDS services (& witnessed many sacraments) & classes (note, I am NOT LDS, nor do I ever intend to be, I just like learning about all religions =) , & have been welcomed (although, to be truthful, I'm hoping it's 'cause I'm so darn likable, & not just that the members want to convert me =) . Some people are rude, yes, but, for the most part, people out here, are nice & friendly. The area itself is very family friendly. =) Maybe when I'm out, I'm white, w/ close aged kids, & a SAHM, so I'm assumed to be LDS, so others are nice to me, I don't know. &, note, that is said from accounts of my neighborhood, who are all, except 1 family, practicing LDS. The 1 family is LDS, but not practicing. I personally love that most of my neighborhood are SAHM's w/ kids, like me. Makes it easy to come out & play. =) I have neighbors w/ boys w/in 3 weeks of DS's age, & a girl w/in a mos of DD's age. There's not much I'd change out here, &, again, I'm NOT LDS/Mormon. =) I've seen garments, & find them to be 'different', but, I'm Catholic, & I'm sure many find that I/we believe bread changes into Jesus' body 'different'. =) Differences are what makes us all special & unique. =)

[BuhByeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by BuckeyezRule

(although, to be truthful, I'm hoping it's 'cause I'm so darn likable, & not just that the members want to convert me =)

Of course it's cuz you're likable! I'm really glad you like it here!

It's because you're here with an open mind, an open heart and without any pre-conceived notions that we Mormons are out to shun you and drive you away.

It's nice you've made some great friends.

[vayapues]

I live in Utah, and am a Mormon. I am active in my faith, and am a father of five children. From the other side of the fence, let me share my perspective.
Our church is very time intensive. Our social lifes often do revolve around the church. Sunday meetings, Friday parties, ward camp-outs, and youngmen and youngwomen activities on Wednesdays uses a lot of our free time.
Naturally spending that much time together makes us closer to each other, than we are to our non-member friends. Just like I am closer to my coworkers than I am to any of my neighbors, member or non-member. It is simply a natural function of how much time you spend with people.
My daughters play with the neighbors all the time, irregardless of their faith. She has sleepovers, etc. We have our neighbors over for bar-b-ques, etc. We help them cut down trees, re-shingle roofs, etc, and they help us.
But yes, I know my member neighbors a little better, because I see them several times a week. You however are welcome in my home, knock on my door, I would love to get to know you.

[Taboo2]

What a bummer. Did you ever think of parochial or private school as an alternative to that? We have them out here because some neighborhood schools suck. But i can see getting away from religion as a great reason to enroll in private school.
My husband never had troubles with the families ostracizing them as kid or his parents (ok maybe his dad). They are STILL in contact through the internet to this day with the mormon families they grew up with. Perhaps he had a great bunch and you were stuck with a rotten bunch.

I would be inclined to send my kid to private school though. I just don't want them to feel ALONE and where I come from, if you want your kid to learn the bible in class, you don't send them to public school.

Originally Posted by SaveMtns

But for two years in a row, our daughter was the only non-Mormon in her class (2nd & 3rd grades), including the teacher, and it was like she went to Sunday School every day. She came home spouting Mormon doctrine. When it became apparent to our neighbors (99% LDS - we were in a beautiful suburb which we learned after moving is commonly referred to as "maternity meadows") that we weren't going to convert, we were cold-shouldered to the max. Our kids were allowed to spend the night at the neighbors' houses, but they were never allowed to stay at ours. Both of our kids were told by neighbor kids that we (the parents) were going to go to hell because we drank coffee. When our kids started being excluded from birthday parties and other similar events involving the kids they went to school with every day, we knew we had to get out.