SLC Vs. Denver (Salt Lake City, Sandy, Ogden: transfer to, university, hippest)

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

A lot of we westerners "look to" travel to those places--quite often.

Here's a good exercise for all of you Easterners. Take your US map and cut out one of the Rocky Mountain states--pick any one, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, etc. Now take it and lay on top of New England or the New York/DC blob. Now, imagine how many people live in the area "covered up" by that Rocky Mountain state--20 million? 40 million? Now, look at the population of the state you picked, 4 million or so for Colorado, the most populous; just over 500,000 for Wyoming, for example.

If you decide that you need more "civilization" than that found in the state you cut out of the map, then stay in the East. Also, try to understand that if you live in, say, Wyoming--with only 500,000 or so population, that "big city" of Cheyenne or Casper with a population of 55,000 to 65,000 each can look pretty good. And, if you've just spent the last hundred or more miles driving 15-25 mph in a raging blizzard with no significant settlements (meaning more than 20 people) in between, you are going to think that a town that has a motel with a room, an open café or bar, and a gas station looks better than New York City on New Year's Eve.

If you're not willing to recognize that difference in perspective, you're probably not going to make it as a true "Westerner," any more than most of we Westerners would like living in the concrete jungle of the Eastern cities.

my guess is that you, jazzlover, might actually appreciate some of what the northeast is about. have you spend much time in upstate NY, vermont, maine, PA, or maryland? not the "wide open spaces" (though much of that domain can be VERY remote and rural - take a look at how much of it is agricultural, or look at the size of the adirondacks park, e.g.), but i'd suspect that people's authenticity, politics, awareness, honesty, etc. might appeal to you. maybe not in NYC or DC, but then again, maybe more than you'd expect. much of what you critique regarding people in the west can actually be the opposite in some of the northeast, e.g..

[cinnabon]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

If you decide that you need more "civilization" than that found in the state you cut out of the map, then stay in the East. Also, try to understand that if you live in, say, Wyoming--with only 500,000 or so population, that "big city" of Cheyenne or Casper with a population of 55,000 to 65,000 each can look pretty good. And, if you've just spent the last hundred or more miles driving 15-25 mph in a raging blizzard with no significant settlements (meaning more than 20 people) in between, you are going to think that a town that has a motel with a room, an open café or bar, and a gas station looks better than New York City on New Year's Eve.

If you're not willing to recognize that difference in perspective, you're probably not going to make it as a true "Westerner," any more than most of we Westerners would like living in the concrete jungle of the Eastern cities.

If someone is dedicated to remaining an Easterner they wouldn't be posting in the Utah forum, right???

The reason I want to move out west is to get away from the over crowding in the northeast, specifically NYC metro area, and to get closer to the beautiful mountain and scenery found out west.

I was just saying that I will miss certain things these large cities offer, such as a huge range of cultural opportunities that you would only find near the largest cities in the country. That's why proximity to other smaller cities does not mean much to me. Although I will miss some things, I have spent almost my whole life here and have had plenty of time to experience it. Now, I am ready to leave (and really excited to finally move out west!) I meant no offense, I am just clarifying why I feel this way.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by hello-world

my guess is that you, jazzlover, might actually appreciate some of what the northeast is about. have you spend much time in upstate NY, vermont, maine, PA, or maryland? not the "wide open spaces" (though much of that domain can be VERY remote and rural - take a look at how much of it is agricultural, or look at the size of the adirondacks park, e.g.), but i'd suspect that people's authenticity, politics, awareness, honesty, etc. might appeal to you. maybe not in NYC or DC, but then again, maybe more than you'd expect. much of what you critique regarding people in the west can actually be the opposite in some of the northeast, e.g..

I've actually traveled some in the East. I found many of the rural areas and small towns quite pleasant. Usually absent in most of those places was the urban Eastern attitude one finds all too commonly in the metro areas. I think that many of those rural folks get sick of that there just like they do here in the West.

I find most of the East too confining, mostly because of the much greater population density and the thickness of trees and foliage. I'm used to the West's wide open spaces (part of the reason I hate what suburbia is doing to those open spaces here). Its older small towns can be charming, though.

If there is a tragedy in the latter day history of the West, it is that most of the growth here has occurred since World War II--after the rise of the "automobile age"--so what has been built ever since then has been along the automobile-dependent, sprawling suburban model that started in southern California. Of course, the cancer of suburbia has infected the East and Midwest with equal fervor--so, not only can most Americans not escape suburbia, most don't even know that there might be a better way to live. There was--the "pre-sprawl" American small town--walkable, with a downtown shopping district, and intercity rail transportation connecting it with the outside world. We had better figure out how to reinvent that model, because the one we've got is rapidly becoming an environmental, a social, and--eventually--an economic failure that will not sustain itself for many more years.

I give SLC credit, at least it has an inkling that it ought to be moving toward light and heavy rail commuter service, as well as some "new urbanism" coming online there. Denver is working on both, but not nearly fast enough--Denver is playing catch-up.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

I've actually traveled some in the East. I found many of the rural areas and small towns quite pleasant. Usually absent in most of those places was the urban Eastern attitude one finds all too commonly in the metro areas. I think that many of those rural folks get sick of that there just like they do here in the West.

I find most of the East too confining, mostly because of the much greater population density and the thickness of trees and foliage. I'm used to the West's wide open spaces (part of the reason I hate what suburbia is doing to those open spaces here). Its older small towns can be charming, though.

If there is a tragedy in the latter day history of the West, it is that most of the growth here has occurred since World War II--after the rise of the "automobile age"--so what has been built ever since then has been along the automobile-dependent, sprawling suburban model that started in southern California. Of course, the cancer of suburbia has infected the East and Midwest with equal fervor--so, not only can most Americans not escape suburbia, most don't even know that there might be a better way to live. There was--the "pre-sprawl" American small town--walkable, with a downtown shopping district, and intercity rail transportation connecting it with the outside world. We had better figure out how to reinvent that model, because the one we've got is rapidly becoming an environmental, a social, and--eventually--an economic failure that will not sustain itself for many more years.

I give SLC credit, at least it has an inkling that it ought to be moving toward light and heavy rail commuter service, as well as some "new urbanism" coming online there. Denver is working on both, but not nearly fast enough--Denver is playing catch-up.

i can definitely understand the "confining" - the foliage etc in the east can result in a sort of enveloped sense with less sky.

i do think that it can be easy to misconstrue what eastern mannerisms can be - honest and direct, more exposed to some of humanity (borders and ports and history can do that), more emphasis on "awareness"/education, e.g. being taken as "attitude" - while i admit it can definitely seem more elite in some quarters (DC "somebodies" and "nobodies" kinds of things, NYC art and finance and "no place like NY city" [which is true in some ways, but a matter of whether you care, i suppose], cambridge formal education). at the same time, i think some of the western shunning of a lot of that and the "personal bubble" (some of that "space") can come off as "similar", albeit "different", attitude. i suppose a bit of this is a bit of what the previous poster might "miss"....and might be exhibiting themselves. another more eastern versus western thing - i find that people in the northeast more often say what's "positive" AND "negative" about things, while people in the west seem to tend more to talk less about the "negative".

i can definitely agree on the sprawl issue. and with some of the wide open spaces (and promotion, and less emphasis on public transport) in the west and midwest, it's REALLY taken off out here. it sometimes seems like the contruction interests (and maybe oil/auto in the past) may have been especially strong west of the mississippi throughout the last 100 years or so).

i've also heard that SLC is actually pretty diverse in terms of the mix of people. good to hear that it's moving more progressively along with it's transportation.

[Katiana]

You guys complaining about the confining aura of the east remind me of my husband. He once said he felt Beaver County, Pennsylvania (which is part Appalachia and part Pittsburgh suburbs) landlocked. I replied that I couldn't think of a place more landlocked than Nebraska, where he is from. When my DD went to college in Minnesota she felt confined as well. I think it's a native western thing, and one area where I will always be an easterner.

That said, I agree more with hello-world than jazzlover about the east. I have lived in many areas of the east including upstate NY and the aforementioned Beaver County. The eastern cities are no more or less concrete jungles than Denver or even SLC. While I don't like the talk of "Old money" vs "new money" that goes on in Philadelphia and probably some other eastern cities, I can assure you that in Pittsburgh most people are "no money". I never heard the other terms until I went to college and met a lot of Philadelphians.

Just what is SLC doing re: mass transit that is better than Denver's light rail and Fasttracks? The last time I was in SLC (for the Olympics) the air quality there was awful.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

Just what is SLC doing re: mass transit that is better than Denver's light rail and Fasttracks? The last time I was in SLC (for the Olympics) the air quality there was awful.

Salt Lake City (actually the entire Wasatch Front) is doing a lot with mass transit. Their light rail system continues to expand, and they will open a heavy rail commuter corridor from Salt Lake City to Ogden in 2008. They are well into the planning process to extend heavy-rail commuter service south from Salt Lake City to Provo and Payson. I believe a good chunk of that (probably to Provo) will be done by 2013. Denver isn't even beyond the conceptual stage for heavy rail commuter service from Denver to Boulder and Fort Collins, and it needs it more than Salt Lake does. What Salt Lake City will have with its commuter rail system from Payson to Ogden would be the equivalent of commuter rail from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs. Colorado has done nothing more than talk about that, Utah is building theirs now. I rest my case. You can go here ( http://www.rideuta.com/projects/ ) to read about it.

I do agree with you about Salt Lake City air quality. It has a real problem, and has had for about a century. It's probably the biggest "downer" about SLC, as I have posted before. Sadly, given the area's geography, I doubt that problem will ever be completely solved. At least SLC is trying to do something about traffic gridlock.

[Katiana]

Does Salt Lake have any currently operating mass transit?

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Salt Lake City (actually the entire Wasatch Front) is doing a lot with mass transit. Their light rail system continues to expand, and they will open a heavy rail commuter corridor from Salt Lake City to Ogden in 2008. They are well into the planning process to extend heavy-rail commuter service south from Salt Lake City to Provo and Payson. I believe a good chunk of that (probably to Provo) will be done by 2013. Denver isn't even beyond the conceptual stage for heavy rail commuter service from Denver to Boulder and Fort Collins, and it needs it more than Salt Lake does. What Salt Lake City will have with its commuter rail system from Payson to Ogden would be the equivalent of commuter rail from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs. Colorado has done nothing more than talk about that, Utah is building theirs now. I rest my case. You can go here ( http://www.rideuta.com/projects/ ) to read about it.

I do agree with you about Salt Lake City air quality. It has a real problem, and has had for about a century. It's probably the biggest "downer" about SLC, as I have posted before. Sadly, given the area's geography, I doubt that problem will ever be completely solved. At least SLC is trying to do something about traffic gridlock.

yeah, the more regular temperature inversions (you see that action in the denver brown cloud sometimes, too), prevailing wind, sunshine, and wasatch conspire for some bad air quality.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

You guys complaining about the confining aura of the east remind me of my husband. He once said he felt Beaver County, Pennsylvania (which is part Appalachia and part Pittsburgh suburbs) landlocked. I replied that I couldn't think of a place more landlocked than Nebraska, where he is from. When my DD went to college in Minnesota she felt confined as well. I think it's a native western thing, and one area where I will always be an easterner.

i could feel a little of the confined in some ways in the east, though less in others. the canopy, altitude, and some of the mentality sometimes could feel more "confined" in some ways that i don't know are necessarily worse (seemed more family oriented in parts of PA and NY and VT, e.g., which might seem confined to some, but seems like it could be healthy enough to me). i thought some of the interaction between people could feel less confined there in other ways (some of the direct, maybe some echoes from the rebellious past there - women's suffrage, revolutionary war, tax and landlord protests, even joe smith...), and i could always sort of feel the proximity to the ocean and "other worlds" there more than i can in colorado, of course. but i can appreciate jazzlover's love for the big skies, the wide open spaces, maybe even some of the "different time and place" feel of some of the west, and people are definitely less "slick" or "sophisticated" seeming here in general than you tend to find in parts of manhattan, DC, etc., which might be nice for some people. a little like that don edwards song "coyotes", maybe, somehow. yet the aversion to slick and sophisticated in some parts can come off at least as "attitudinous" or "closed" as some of those slick and sophisticated people can, in my humble opinion.

[Katiana]

I pretty much agree. We were in the Appalachia part of Beaver County when DH said the above. My DD was in a small town in Minnesota for college. I think for those two anyway, it had to do with the rolling hills and the trees. PA and NY are very family oriented, IMO. Not a lot of working moms in Albany, NY, at least where we lived. Many people have lots of extended family there, too. I like the big skies, too. I loved watching the corn grow in Illinois, especially in the summer when the wind blew it. I don't mind driving across Nebraska, which is probably a good thing, since we do it at least once per year.