Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Why are Mormons high-achieving professionally? They are similar to Jews in this respect. Is it a calling to excellence, or pressure to achieve and gain status? Is there also a desire to prove oneself since Mormons are often (unfairly, I believe) ridiculed for their beliefs?
And are there certain domains they focus on? They seem to gravitate towards the business world. I've heard Harvard Business School has a long history with Mormons. Do Mormons favor the applied arts and sciences more than the theoretical arts and sciences?
Why are Mormons high-achieving professionally? They are similar to Jews in this respect. Is it a calling to excellence, or pressure to achieve and gain status? Is there also a desire to prove oneself since Mormons are often (unfairly, I believe) ridiculed for their beliefs?
Those are hard questions to answer. I think it mostly has to do with a work ethic that seems to be ingrained in us from childhood. We believe there is value in hard work. Because of the persecution of the Church during its early history, I think Mormons have always believed in the importance of self-sufficiency. Utah is known as the "Beehive State" because a community of bees is perceived as hard-working, industrious, cooperative and persistent.
Quote:
And are there certain domains they focus on? They seem to gravitate towards the business world. I've heard Harvard Business School has a long history with Mormons. Do Mormons favor the applied arts and sciences more than the theoretical arts and sciences?
I don't think they gravitate towards any one area. There may be more Mormons in certain leadership positions because it is almost impossible to effectively serve an LDS mission without developing certain leadership qualities. Also, Mormons develop public speaking skills from their childhood and generally enter adulthood with a certain degree of self-confidence that might be absent in some groups. It's really hard to say, though.
Hey, it's been a long time since we've heard from you! Glad to know things are still going well with you.
Bless you Katzpur, had a fab 2 months back home in the UK and busy as ever with the kids and their social lives as well as squeezing fun in for ourselves with friends . Lots of concerts been on here so been grooving and a moving lol !
Why are Mormons high-achieving professionally? They are similar to Jews in this respect. Is it a calling to excellence, or pressure to achieve and gain status? Is there also a desire to prove oneself since Mormons are often (unfairly, I believe) ridiculed for their beliefs?
And are there certain domains they focus on? They seem to gravitate towards the business world. I've heard Harvard Business School has a long history with Mormons. Do Mormons favor the applied arts and sciences more than the theoretical arts and sciences?
This is actually a misconception. Mormons are not nearly as high-achieving as those of the Jewish or Hindu faiths, but neither are they low-achieving like Jehovah's Wittness or Black Protestant. In fact they are about as middle-of-the-road as you can be. They do have a larger percentage of families earning between 50-75k than any other faith. This would typically be a comfortable middle-class family and this is often the goal of most Mormons as the lifestyle fits cultural beliefs well, but have far fewer families earning about 100k than those of Jewish, Hindu or Orthodox families, and even fewer than other Mainline Protestant or Catholic faiths.
It's tough to say "Mormons like to study..." because there are probably 5.5 million Mormons in the US. That's like trying to say "All people from Minnesota prefer hockey to any other sport." There may be some basis, but it's a pretty inaccurate generalization. One does find that due to an increased prevalence of bilingual Mormons you see a disproportionate number of people going into international business or other fields in which fluency in two languages are helpful. Also due to such emphasis on the traditional mid-20th Century family unit you see a disproportionate number of women who study primary or secondary education in the hopes that they will not need to work, but that if they do they can have summers off with the kids. Also in my field (Geology) I have found very, very few Mormons at all. Even in Utah it was a secular dominated field.
I've seen what seems to be a gravitation toward the computer science field, at least in this area. Not sure how much there is to that, but I do know that Utah has among the highest rates of Autism in the nation (and WAS the highest for many years), which is usually related.
This is actually a misconception. Mormons are not nearly as high-achieving as those of the Jewish or Hindu faiths, but neither are they low-achieving like Jehovah's Wittness or Black Protestant. In fact they are about as middle-of-the-road as you can be. They do have a larger percentage of families earning between 50-75k than any other faith. This would typically be a comfortable middle-class family and this is often the goal of most Mormons as the lifestyle fits cultural beliefs well, but have far fewer families earning about 100k than those of Jewish, Hindu or Orthodox families, and even fewer than other Mainline Protestant or Catholic faiths.
It's tough to say "Mormons like to study..." because there are probably 5.5 million Mormons in the US. That's like trying to say "All people from Minnesota prefer hockey to any other sport." There may be some basis, but it's a pretty inaccurate generalization. One does find that due to an increased prevalence of bilingual Mormons you see a disproportionate number of people going into international business or other fields in which fluency in two languages are helpful. Also due to such emphasis on the traditional mid-20th Century family unit you see a disproportionate number of women who study primary or secondary education in the hopes that they will not need to work, but that if they do they can have summers off with the kids. Also in my field (Geology) I have found very, very few Mormons at all. Even in Utah it was a secular dominated field.
Its a question I've thought about. I don't think there is one single answer to it. I went to school with Mormons who were of quite average intelligence and actually believed some pretty crazy things. For example, rejection of evolution was common place among Latter Day Saints when I went to school in the late 1970's.
On the other hand, if I look at my public elementary school class in a very middle class neighborhood in South Ogden, Utah and look at where my classmates all ended up there was obviously something very right going on. The families were about 80% LDS. Out of a class of perhaps 35 students, we had three who became physicians. We had two or three who became lawyers. We had an engineer, military officers, business owners, a forest ranger, a school principal, and even one college professor who left the church and went on to teach science at a private college. I'm only aware of one or two that didn't succeed. Those students sadly had either learning disabilities or health problems.
I think strong family values encourages a family to support children who choose to seek higher education. College becomes a "family effort" instead of simply an individual endeavor. An expectation is set. The family helps the individual achieve his/her goals.
Utah has comparatively low college tuition and this may increase college attendance some.
My next comment is rather complex. I think sometimes forcing people into a rigid school of thought (and I felt Mormonism was that in the 1960's and 1970's) sometimes causes people in that system to rebel and perhaps think a little harder. In my view, there has been some subtle liberalization in the church since I was a young person. I think some us quietly pushed from inside the church and over time it became a broader tent as a result. I've seen this among many of my friends. People who were very rigid when they were younger, now think more broadly. The church has gone from admitting blacks into the priesthood to accepting the reality of gay marriage. Someday, it may even accept women into the priesthood. However, even it does not, it will not be because men see women as inferior. It will simply be reluctance to tamper with custom.
In the end, I'm left with little that is empirical. I do think though that Mormons are more successful on the average than other groups are. I have friends outside my state that are starting to notice it too. I've even been asked what our secret is. All I can do is repeat what I have told you.
Last edited by markg91359; 10-15-2016 at 08:21 PM..
But Mark, the actual empirical data suggests that typical Mormon household has equivalent financial success to your typical, average American household - with the only real noteworthy variance being fewer wealthy families and a larger group earning average income incomes and I do believe this plays right into Mormon values. "I have sufficient for me needs" and what-not.
Even if we use the state of Utah as a data point(see graph on page 2) to contrast with Mormonism we'd see the same exact thing as the Pew Survey. Overall average income, larger/healthier middle class, slightly above average poverty/working class and a significantly smaller upper-middle/upper class. This isn't a bad thing, in fact even as a critic of Mormonism I think it's a good thing. I believe I saw a study a few years ago about the cities with the least income inequality and a bunch in the top 10 were South Valley suburbs.
I'm going to contradict myself and say that one thing worth considering here is there are more single-earner families in Mormonism, which does say something about a potential for elevated individual economic success among Mormon males. My apologies, this sounds sexist, and it is, but I'm trying to be objective - The gender pay-gap in Utah is 48th in the nation and that's certainly partially attributable to Mormon family structure and the way we raise our kids.
Many households have two full time incomes to earn 50-75k range, but in Mormonism I would assume there is a slightly higher percentage of households who do this on one income, when compared to all other faiths. Of course both scenarios happen in both circumstances, but Mormonism culturally favors one-income households and SAHMs. That is the case for my household currently as my wife is taking a few years off for our babies, and though we're non-believer, non-practicing Mormons, a census form would tally us as Mormon, because we identify as such (something I'm still a bit reluctant about... haha). Now were my wife and I to stick to this lifestyle we could raise a happy, healthy family, and many Mormons do this exact thing; however, when my wife goes back to work, we'll be in that 100k plus bracket, and I imagine this could probably happen with many one-income LDS families landing in that 50-75k range.
So maybe there is a slight propensity for Mormons to achieve greater career success, even if this is not reflected in incomes, but I would still estimate this tendency is not as great as seen in Hindu or Jewish Americans.
Most Mormons try to "love their neighbor" and be kind to everyone, but there are exceptions.
I was raised in a very active Mormon family (we went to ALL of our church meetings). I was shy and avoided being in or around groups. As a young adult SOME members mis-judged me and looked down their noses at me. They would actually sneer while telling me that I wasn't as good as them. Naturally, I quit going to church. It had nothing to do with doctrine and all to do with avoiding folks who wanted to pick on the oddball and felt secure in their status as members of the group.
Since then, I've lived in several towns in the western United States. I've been on-again, off-again active in the Church and I've seen that same kind of behavior several times.
Now, no longer a young man, I've come to really, honestly, value the LDS Church and its members (most of them). Everywhere I've lived, I've found that (many) Mormons try hard to reach out and include everyone in their "ward family". Because of cultural, background, and individual differences, it doesn't always go so well, but they do try in their own way. The last two or three times I've moved to a new town, I haven't had any worries about needing help and the nearest friend is 4, 5, or 6 hours away. Instead, I've known that a caring, "ward family" awaits, and I'm going to have to repeatedly tell them to leave me alone (whether I'm active in the Church or not). I find it a little irritating for myself but mostly comforting, because I know that, even if we don't know a single person in the area, my wife (who loves crowds) and kids are going to meet about 100 new people that will treat them like old friends - in the first week! The last time I moved, I didn't even notice any of the sneering, judgmental folks that I just know are there!
It seems to me that it's just human nature (and animal nature) to pick on the one who is somehow different. Mormons are no different in that respect - a few of them will pick at you but most of them will build you up. And once your shell has hardened up a bit, you don't even notice those who pick. Instead, you notice those that try to include you and build you up!
I always grew up thinking "the church is good, but the people are flawed." I then went all apostate and kind of had the opinion of "Everything about the church is terrible." - but as I've aged and had time to process the bitter feelings I held toward the church over the last couple years I've found that I had it backwards in my teen/young-adult years.
I now believe that the people are good, but the church is flawed.
In general, Mormons are great people. Even 6 states away the best friends I've made have been part of the local Post-Mormon group. The community and family emphasis which exists in the culture is important and wonderful. It is the ... weird stuff.. within the church that makes it a place I am uncomfortable (or in some instances that tends to be uncomfortable with me). The politics, the Pharisaical dogma, the proprietorship on "truth" - but none of that is the culture of Mormonism. That's stuff taught from the pulpit and put in the correlated textbooks, the culture though is something special. It's one of community. Yes, it is a community that can be found in many places - but it can frequently be found within the walls of an LDS church, which is why I believe a lot of non-believing members maintain a modest level of involvement.
Mormons are indeed like Jews in that they network between one another and promote one another. No slam against either group. Everyone does this. You react more favorably to people who are like you. Btw, I am neither a Mormon or a Jew.
I think you're right to some extent. On the other hand, I think your statement requires some clarification. In Utah, where the majority of the population is Mormon, and where the church you attend if you are a Mormon is determined by your home address, you likely know people in your congregation who are able to provide you with certain services or products. Keep in mind that you don't just attend church with these people; you likely have socialized with them or participated in service projects with them or babysat their kids over a long period of time. Of course they are your primary network. If you personally know a good electrician or podiatrist or tax accountant because of a twenty-year association, chances are that when you need an electrician, podiatrist or tax accountant, you're not going to Google to find one. You're going to go with the one you know from your years of associating at church on a weekly basis. If you are a Mormon and move into Salt Lake City from out-of-state, you're probably more likely to take advantage of the opinions of the people in your new "ward family" (even if you don't yet know them well) over just going with a shot in the dark. But that doesn't mean you're going to go out of your way to find a Mormon electrician, podiatrist or tax accountant if you don't know one already. I have no idea what religion my primary care physician, dentist, or financial adviser are, and I don't really care. I think that's the way it is with most people in this area.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
