Thinking about moving here but........ (live, legal, suburban)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

The elected officials determine tons of laws that have a direct effect on the people of Utah.

Which is as it should be. The elected officials of any state determine the laws that have a direct effect on the people of that state.

How many abortion clinics are there in Utah?

Probably as many as there need to be. There simply isn't as great a demand in Utah for abortion clinics as there is in some places. Do you seriously see this as something negative?

Do you have to notify your parents if you get one and are under 18? DO pharmacist have the right to deny handing out birth control or abortion pills?

I thought you were talking about laws that are unique to Utah. These certainly aren't.

There are MANY things that religious leaders have their fingers on and are controlling. They are elected by the majority, but just because a majority approves doesn't make it fair or right.

Of course it's fair. You just don't like it. Are you saying that if the minority were to be the ones to make the rules, that would be "fair"?

If the majority were into prayer in schools, would we pass laws allowing that?

First off, you're talking about a hypothetical law. Why don't you stick to the actual laws you see as "unfair."

No, because the majority is not always the best way to determine if something is in the best interest of the people.

In the best interest of which people? No law can be in the best interest of all the people. Why should any law be in the best interest of the minority instead of the majority?

Just because you want it doesn't mean it doesn't violate others civil rights.

And just because you don't want it, it's not unfair or undemocratic.

Seriously, there are 49 other states. All 49 states are governed by legistlators whose votes represent the will of their constituents. That's so obvious that it shouldn't even require an explanation. Obviously you'd be happier elsewhere. I guess I just don't understand why you'd stick around when you hate it so bad.

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

Umm, I don't think Taboo2 actually lives here. I believe they are contemplating moving in a few years, as per another thread.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah

Umm, I don't think Taboo2 actually lives here. I believe they are contemplating moving in a few years, as per another thread.

Oh yes! Thanks for pointing that out. Well, that's good. It's not too late for him then. Seriously, I don't think he'd be very happy here, and it's all about being happy, isn't it?

[Katzpur]

I'm a real "the glass is half empty" kind of person when it comes to the weather in Salt Lake, but even I would agree that it's absolute nonsense to say that it snows 9 months out of the year. Since I hate winter, it seems to me to start long before I'm ready for it and drag on forever. I generally figure that we can't count on really nice weather any time between about October 15 and April 15. For me, Spring goes from April 15 to June 15. Summer goes from June 15 to August 15. Fall goes from August 15 to October 15. And winter goes from October 15 to April 15. That's six months of good weather and six months of bad. Call me a pessimist, but if I expect good weather any more than six months out of the year, I'm inevitably disappointed.

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Probably as many as there need to be. There simply isn't as great a demand in Utah for abortion clinics as there is in some places. Do you seriously see this as something negative?

Well i see that women may die because they do not have access to an abortion if they so choose because all the providers refuse to perform them? Yes I can see that being a problem for any woman in the state of Utah. Are you a woman? Would this situation ever effect you? If not then you have no business commenting on the subject.

"Do you have to notify your parents if you get one and are under 18? DO pharmacist have the right to deny handing out birth control or abortion pills? "
I thought you were talking about laws that are unique to Utah. These certainly aren't.

Oh no this isn't unique to Utah, this is any state where a strong religious population is represented in the legislation.

Of course it's fair. You just don't like it. Are you saying that if the minority were to be the ones to make the rules, that would be "fair"?

Yes if it violated the rights of others, then just because the majority wants it that way, it is NOT fair or just. Take Slavery, everyone in the South wanted it. Did that EVER, in all it's existance, make it RIGHT? NO the majority was wrong and had to be overruled in favor of the minority.

First off, you're talking about a hypothetical law. Why don't you stick to the actual laws you see as "unfair."

Prayer in utah school wasn't abolished that long ago. YOu do realize that the school districts and boundaries were created directly from the wards and the church. The church has always had a hand in the Schools in Utah.

In the best interest of which people? No law can be in the best interest of all the people. Why should any law be in the best interest of the minority instead of the majority?

Umm.. Gee... because it violates others civil rights (i.e. just because the majority thinks gay people are bad bad bad does not mean you can discriminate against them or you can physically hurt them).
There are many cases where the majority is violating the rights of a minority and that is when the legislators and supreme court and everyone get involved because the majority was WRONG.

"They are elected by the majority, but just because a majority approves doesn't make it fair or right. "
And just because you don't want it, it's not unfair or undemocratic.

No it doesn't. But when something violates others rights and freedoms it is unfair and the elected officials are part of the process to make things right. If they let their bible get in the way of the political duties then people suffer.

Seriously, there are 49 other states. All 49 states are governed by legistlators whose votes represent the will of their constituents. That's so obvious that it shouldn't even require an explanation. Obviously you'd be happier elsewhere. I guess I just don't understand why you'd stick around when you hate it so bad.

Oh there are many states who have the same problems Utah has as far people who first rule by the bible instead of the constitution, the thing is to not brush these problems under the rug but to do what is right, not what is easy.

I think they all have a moral conscience- but they need to make sure they are not just pandering to those who elected them, but are doing what it TRULY just.

I think this influx of non lds should even things up a bit.

[dcisive]

Well, I'm not LDS, BUT where do you think the basis for the Constitution came from.....yeah you guessed it....The Bible. I just wish they'd have kept the institution of Capital Punishment alive. If someone "Murders' (not kills there is a difference) I think it is far better to remove them from the planet then feed them and allow them to have life after the crimes they commit taking other innocent lives. Especially gang members....I say burn them all

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

Well i see that women may die because they do not have access to an abortion if they so choose because all the providers refuse to perform them?

Providers have the right to refuse to perform abortions everywhere in the country. Apparently you feel that a provider should have to perform an abortion even if he or she doesn't want to. I'm not saying that women shouldn't have the right to choose. I'm saying that this is NOT the huge issue in Utah that you are claiming it is.

Are you a woman? Would this situation ever effect you? If not then you have no business commenting on the subject.

I see. You, as an out-of-stater, have the right to comment on this, but I don't. Well, coming from your perspective, I can see where that would make a lot of sense.

Yes if it violated the rights of others, then just because the majority wants it that way, it is NOT fair or just. Take Slavery, everyone in the South wanted it. Did that EVER, in all it's existance, make it RIGHT? NO the majority was wrong and had to be overruled in favor of the minority.

Of course it would not be right if it violated someone's civil rights, but you're veering way off track now. I've never supported any laws that would violate someone's constitutional rights.

Prayer in utah school wasn't abolished that long ago. YOu do realize that the school districts and boundaries were created directly from the wards and the church. The church has always had a hand in the Schools in Utah.

I grew up in Utah. I attended public schools in Salt Lake City for 13 years, and I can't recall of a single solitary instance when I heard a prayer offered in school. As for the the creation of school districts, you're talking about a period of time when this made perfect sense. It was a logical way of doing things 150 years ago. It's not a logical way of doing things now, and it's not done that way now. You are getting so worked up over nothing. I can hardly believe it!

Umm.. Gee... because it violates others civil rights (i.e. just because the majority thinks gay people are bad bad bad does not mean you can discriminate against them or you can physically hurt them).
There are many cases where the majority is violating the rights of a minority and that is when the legislators and supreme court and everyone get involved because the majority was WRONG.

No it doesn't. But when something violates others rights and freedoms it is unfair and the elected officials are part of the process to make things right. If they let their bible get in the way of the political duties then people suffer.

Calm down, and stop your whining. I'm part of the religious majority here and I don't think gay people are "bad, bad, bad." If I lived in California, I would have voted 'no' on Proposition 8. I have no desire to force my beliefs on others. I'm simply saying that when the majority of people believe a certain way, the laws governing them in a democratic society are going to reflect their lifestyle. You need to get over it. Seriously.

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by dcisive

Well, I'm not LDS, BUT where do you think the basis for the Constitution came from.....yeah you guessed it....The Bible.

I know we stick God into a lot of things, like swearing in at court sessions and other places, but this country was founded on people who were escaping religious persection.

The Bible did not have anything to do with the constitution.

That means they did not want ONE God (at that point the Catholic Church's) to tell them what was right or wrong, they wanted the freedom to worship their own God (mostly Protestant).
IN this day and age there are so many religions out there that for anyone to force another person into worshipping THEIR God is a violation of their civil rights.

I believe in God, but I am intelligent enough to realize that not everyone believes in the SAME God that i believe.

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Providers have the right to refuse to perform abortions everywhere in the country. Apparently you feel that a provider should have to perform an abortion even if he or she doesn't want to. I'm not saying that women shouldn't have the right to choose. I'm saying that this is NOT the huge issue in Utah that you are claiming it is.

I believe there are many careers you shoudl not go into if you are not willing to serve the community at large. This is one of them.

You should not become an OBGYN if you are not willing to take ccare of your patients to the best of your ability and if they require an abortion you are neglecting your hippocratic oath by not helping them FIND someone who is willing to do it. And this should not mean they have to travel out of state(South Dakota I am looking your way).

I see. You, as an out-of-stater, have the right to comment on this, but I don't. Well, coming from your perspective, I can see where that would make a lot of sense.

Well I am a woman and whether I reside in Ohio, Nebraska or Utah I do have the right to comment on this. You having no ovaries or womb do not.

I grew up in Utah. I attended public schools in Salt Lake City for 13 years, and I can't recall of a single solitary instance when I heard a prayer offered in school. As for the the creation of school districts, you're talking about a period of time when this made perfect sense. It was a logical way of doing things 150 years ago. It's not a logical way of doing things now, and it's not done that way now. You are getting so worked up over nothing. I can hardly believe it!

Well in West Bountiful it was still happening in the late 70s. It did stop and so did the ward boundaries determining the public school districts.

Calm down, and stop your whining. I'm part of the religious majority here and I don't think gay people are "bad, bad, bad." If I lived in California, I would have voted 'no' on Proposition 8. I have no desire to force my beliefs on others. I'm simply saying that when the majority of people believe a certain way, the laws governing them in a democratic society are going to reflect their lifestyle. You need to get over it. Seriously.

Who is whining? How would one even whine over a computer since it has no tone? I am have a decent conversation about a part of the country that is finally coming out of it's restrictive past and hopefully welcoming new residents.

There is nothing to get over, the state is changing for the better and over the next 100 years it will continue to change for the better and finally catch up with the rest of the country.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

I believe there are many careers you shoudl not go into if you are not willing to serve the community at large. This is one of them.

If this discussion gets any more absurd I think I'm going to crack up! Anybody who is vehemently anti-abortionist (I'm not, by the way) would accuse you of believing that only people who are willing to murder innocent babies should become ObGyns.

Well I am a woman and whether I reside in Ohio, Nebraska or Utah I do have the right to comment on this. You having no ovaries or womb do not.

Who told you I have no ovaries or womb? I'm here to tell you I have both and they are in magnificent shape.

You need to realize that the words "right, fair, ethical, moral, legal, democratic, equitable, decent and just" are not synonyms, even though you use them as if they are. If this were a perfect world, we might be able to do that. Unfortunately, it's not, and what's democratic is not necessarily fair. What's legal is not necessarily moral. What's ethical is not necessarily just.

I am have a decent conversation about a part of the country that is finally coming out of it's restrictive past and hopefully welcoming new residents.

Yeah, well, thank God most of them aren't headed this way looking for a fight.